2nd Caucasian Kindjal for comment

Gavin Nugent · 21st May 2008, 08:58 AM

Photos in natural light rather than having the piece backlit.

Photo 1, Shows the real age to the neillo on the backside of the scabbard which in reality does wear more than the front of any scabbard. One can clearly see the losses of the neillo, these losses are the base of 8 borders that surround the floral neillo on the reverse, only 4 remain perfect as does the floral arrangements, but this is all bar a little bit that remains of the other 4 borders.

Photo 2, One hundred times larger than it really is, one can plainly see that there are no sharp edges and that all the pattern has been chiseled.

In photo 3, if you look close you can see at the tip there is a small amount of pitting and delamination, the rest of the blade shows to be rubbed over with what I could only think to be "sandpaper". Over all it shows a warmer older feel in natural light.

Photo 4, Comparrison, do you really think they were made in the same place or time? If so, do tell more...

Photo 5,6 & 7, Showthe wonderful chiseled and cut releif that is found in the silver scabbard and hilt.

ALEX · 21st May 2008, 10:27 AM

Gav, to be critical of an item also means to be aware of methods and techniques used by "artists" to deliberately age their products, i.e. to make them look old. I observed scabbards being "worked" with metal chains and hammers to create an "old look". the acids and mechanical tears are very common to "age" the metal. Even stamps and punch marks can be "new". This is true not only for weapons, but for ANY antiquity!!! Also, it takes just weeks for patina to appear on silver, not even months:-) I have a solution which will "patina-age" the silver in 20 seconds!!! I am not just saying the kindjal is "brand new fake". It could be 5, 10, 20 years old. I am critical of it because I see some reasons to be.
I'd also suggest taking it to the experienced antique jeweler/dealer, and asking to look at it via magnifying glass. They usually can tell the age.

Gavin Nugent · 21st May 2008, 10:54 AM

Interesting Idea Alex, I know of a very good Hungarian jeweler who I will be travelling past tomorrow when I go to have a new tire put on the scooter, for now have a look at these 2 photos through a 10X jewelers loop I had handy.

There have been a couple of links to Oriental-arms for comparrisons, blades aside, I welcome those who have these in their collections to offer a few up for comparrision to point out what they think the exact differences are that seperate this piece from theirs???

Lew · 21st May 2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Please point out the sloppy lines you refer to Lew?

Down at the tip on the finale and just above that is an area that has crosshatching. The lines are crudely applied and seem uneven to me. I'm no expert in kindjals but I do have an excellent eye for detail and this caught my attention. The blade itself shows very little sign of age or use which also raises some flags to me. Gav I am not trying to put your kindjal down it is still a nicely made example for what it is. It takes years of research and handling older examples of any type of weapon to get a real feel for what is truly old and authentic and I have been burned a few times but you need to take it in stride and learn from the experience. As far as buying weapons from Butterfields or any other auction houses beware some of there appraisers have no clue what they are talking about I have seen them screw up big time.

Lew

Gavin Nugent · 22nd May 2008, 08:39 AM

It has been confirmed as authentic late 19th century piece most definitely and most very possibly earlier, 1860/70s.

The well known antique jeweller and watch maker was too amazed at the craftsmanship and precise handcut relief of this piece. He spent a good deal of time going over the entire piece and stated it to be of outstanding craftsmanship of the highest quality that would have taken a very very long time to complete.

It was also confirmed by another elderly French gentleman whom he referred me and who owns a high end art gallery here in Brisbane. He has an amazing knowledge of antique arms and is also a collector of fine 14th century to very early 19th century European and Japanese arms of which he is giving me the privilege to view for a few hours next Tuesday before his gallery doors open. Quite a joy for me as I will be able to talk to him about other parts of my personal collection other than weaponry. His personal choice does not include weapons post 1820 as his view is that the era past this point was vastly machine made weapons with notable exceptions.

It has been suggested too by this collector that I invest in a UV light. I have not heard of this ever mentioned in this forum anywhere but he seems to think with a good UV light and some time I should be able to see the rubbed script in the cartouche to the rear of the scabbard. It will reveal in more detail, the threads in the scabbard throat and in the hilt which was mistaken for wood too.... and I thought UV was reserved for stamp collectors. A rubbing too will be done of this to see what it reveals.

I will also be returning to the Jeweller that afternoon to have the quality of silver tested for records sake, in the mean time I will soak the collectors sticker off the back as it does so detract further from the beauty.

All the best chaps, feel free to continue with your thoughts and postings on this piece I am intrigued.

regards

Gav

David · 22nd May 2008, 02:52 PM

Congratuations Gav. I am glad that you finally got the "expert" assessment that you have been wanting on this piece. Funny thing about "experts"....if we look long enough we will always be able to find one that will tell us what we want to hear. I am not trying to say that you latest "expert" is not absolutely correct. He may well be. Personally i know nothing about these knives and to me it looks quite nice. But as someone who has spent a lot of time collecting and learning about keris i have discovered that things are not always what they appear to be and sometimes people deliberately create things to deceive. Not necessarily the case here, but always a possibility.
Many of the people on this forum who have taken the time to try to answer your questions about this piece have a great deal of combined knowledge about these knives. Some have made it their specialty. Doesn't mean they are right about your kindjal either, but they didn't have to respond to your post, they have done so with good will in the spirit of collecting and sharing knowledge. You might do youself well not to alienate an entire community of knowledgeable collectors just because you found an expert who told you what you wanted to hear.

fernando · 22nd May 2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

...if we look long enough we will always be able to find one that will tell us what we want to hear ...

So true, David

21st May 2008, 08:58 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Further photos Photos in natural light rather than having the piece backlit. Photo 1, Shows the real age to the neillo on the backside of the scabbard which in reality does wear more than the front of any scabbard. One can clearly see the losses of the neillo, these losses are the base of 8 borders that surround the floral neillo on the reverse, only 4 remain perfect as does the floral arrangements, but this is all bar a little bit that remains of the other 4 borders. Photo 2, One hundred times larger than it really is, one can plainly see that there are no sharp edges and that all the pattern has been chiseled. In photo 3, if you look close you can see at the tip there is a small amount of pitting and delamination, the rest of the blade shows to be rubbed over with what I could only think to be "sandpaper". Over all it shows a warmer older feel in natural light. Photo 4, Comparrison, do you really think they were made in the same place or time? If so, do tell more... Photo 5,6 & 7, Showthe wonderful chiseled and cut releif that is found in the silver scabbard and hilt. Attached Images

21st May 2008, 10:54 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting Idea Interesting Idea Alex, I know of a very good Hungarian jeweler who I will be travelling past tomorrow when I go to have a new tire put on the scooter, for now have a look at these 2 photos through a 10X jewelers loop I had handy. There have been a couple of links to Oriental-arms for comparrisons, blades aside, I welcome those who have these in their collections to offer a few up for comparrision to point out what they think the exact differences are that seperate this piece from theirs??? Attached Images

22nd May 2008, 08:39 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A genuine work of art. It has been confirmed as authentic late 19th century piece most definitely and most very possibly earlier, 1860/70s. The well known antique jeweller and watch maker was too amazed at the craftsmanship and precise handcut relief of this piece. He spent a good deal of time going over the entire piece and stated it to be of outstanding craftsmanship of the highest quality that would have taken a very very long time to complete. It was also confirmed by another elderly French gentleman whom he referred me and who owns a high end art gallery here in Brisbane. He has an amazing knowledge of antique arms and is also a collector of fine 14th century to very early 19th century European and Japanese arms of which he is giving me the privilege to view for a few hours next Tuesday before his gallery doors open. Quite a joy for me as I will be able to talk to him about other parts of my personal collection other than weaponry. His personal choice does not include weapons post 1820 as his view is that the era past this point was vastly machine made weapons with notable exceptions. It has been suggested too by this collector that I invest in a UV light. I have not heard of this ever mentioned in this forum anywhere but he seems to think with a good UV light and some time I should be able to see the rubbed script in the cartouche to the rear of the scabbard. It will reveal in more detail, the threads in the scabbard throat and in the hilt which was mistaken for wood too.... and I thought UV was reserved for stamp collectors. A rubbing too will be done of this to see what it reveals. I will also be returning to the Jeweller that afternoon to have the quality of silver tested for records sake, in the mean time I will soak the collectors sticker off the back as it does so detract further from the beauty. All the best chaps, feel free to continue with your thoughts and postings on this piece I am intrigued. regards Gav Last edited by freebooter; 22nd May 2008 at 11:13 AM.

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21st May 2008, 10:27 AM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Gav, to be critical of an item also means to be aware of methods and techniques used by "artists" to deliberately age their products, i.e. to make them look old. I observed scabbards being "worked" with metal chains and hammers to create an "old look". the acids and mechanical tears are very common to "age" the metal. Even stamps and punch marks can be "new". This is true not only for weapons, but for ANY antiquity!!! Also, it takes just weeks for patina to appear on silver, not even months:-) I have a solution which will "patina-age" the silver in 20 seconds!!! I am not just saying the kindjal is "brand new fake". It could be 5, 10, 20 years old. I am critical of it because I see some reasons to be. I'd also suggest taking it to the experienced antique jeweler/dealer, and asking to look at it via magnifying glass. They usually can tell the age.

22nd May 2008, 02:52 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Congratuations Gav. I am glad that you finally got the "expert" assessment that you have been wanting on this piece. Funny thing about "experts"....if we look long enough we will always be able to find one that will tell us what we want to hear. I am not trying to say that you latest "expert" is not absolutely correct. He may well be. Personally i know nothing about these knives and to me it looks quite nice. But as someone who has spent a lot of time collecting and learning about keris i have discovered that things are not always what they appear to be and sometimes people deliberately create things to deceive. Not necessarily the case here, but always a possibility. Many of the people on this forum who have taken the time to try to answer your questions about this piece have a great deal of combined knowledge about these knives. Some have made it their specialty. Doesn't mean they are right about your kindjal either, but they didn't have to respond to your post, they have done so with good will in the spirit of collecting and sharing knowledge. You might do youself well not to alienate an entire community of knowledgeable collectors just because you found an expert who told you what you wanted to hear.