new find (seem like betok)

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2008, 06:52 AM

Sorry Ferry, its not really good enough.

Tell me, is the buntut urang nguceng mati ?

ferrylaki · 13th May 2008, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sorry Ferry, its not really good enough.

Tell me, is the buntut urang nguceng mati ?

the buntut urang is 3mm wide.

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2008, 09:13 AM

OK---thanks.

What tangguh do you think it might be?

Its too hard to guess from the pics. Its not a typical form and the proportions are peculiar. If you can lay a supportable tangguh onto it, you might be able to form an opinion as to whether it was made like this, or it has been shortened.

ferrylaki · 13th May 2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

OK---thanks.

What tangguh do you think it might be?

Its too hard to guess from the pics. Its not a typical form and the proportions are peculiar. If you can lay a supportable tangguh onto it, you might be able to form an opinion as to whether it was made like this, or it has been shortened.

I would say its tuban, for the thickness of the keris.
has been shortened??? if only it has been shortened, then it might also been re shape though???

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2008, 02:27 PM

Yeah, it looks a bit Tubanishy, but I can't see if the sirah cecak is the right shape---looks a bit that way, but you really need to look straight down on it. A Tuban buntut urang is not quite nguceng mati, but it sure isn't nyebit rontal---its a straight,heavy, pretty ugly gonjo that looks like the tail has been cut off, which results in it looking like a shortened nguceng mati---that is, if it was longer, it would be.
However the iron looks too black for Tuban. The Pawakan will be more or less ovoid if its Tuban.
This blade seems to have some Tuban characteristics, but as always, its a bit hard to tell from a photo.
Yeah, I'd say it could have been reshaped---the pawakan is out of balance---see the way it tends to sort of lean forward, but its not really leaning forward? Proportion and balance is wrong.
But even so, its still not a real bad thing--- it all depends on whether you like it or not, and how much you paid for it. You'd be surprised at some of my favourite keris.

ferrylaki · 14th May 2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yeah, it looks a bit Tubanishy, but I can't see if the sirah cecak is the right shape---looks a bit that way, but you really need to look straight down on it. A Tuban buntut urang is not quite nguceng mati, but it sure isn't nyebit rontal---its a straight,heavy, pretty ugly gonjo that looks like the tail has been cut off, which results in it looking like a shortened nguceng mati---that is, if it was longer, it would be.
However the iron looks too black for Tuban. The Pawakan will be more or less ovoid if its Tuban.
This blade seems to have some Tuban characteristics, but as always, its a bit hard to tell from a photo.
Yeah, I'd say it could have been reshaped---the pawakan is out of balance---see the way it tends to sort of lean forward, but its not really leaning forward? Proportion and balance is wrong.
But even so, its still not a real bad thing--- it all depends on whether you like it or not, and how much you paid for it. You'd be surprised at some of my favourite keris.

the"pijetan" looks suspicious to me.
basicly, I do not hate reshape kerises.
but like every body else, I prefer an original piece.
I do have a doubt at this moment.
Thanks a lot for your comments...

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2008, 02:48 AM

Ferry, we do what we can.
As I said, some of my favourite keris would surprise you. Its all a matter of if you like it. Recognise what we have and like or dislike according to feeling. This is different to forming an opinion based upon appraisal.

What do you mean by the pijetan looks suspicious?

David · 14th May 2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A Tuban buntut urang is not quite nguceng mati, but it sure isn't nyebit rontal---its a straight,heavy, pretty ugly gonjo that looks like the tail has been cut off, which results in it looking like a shortened nguceng mati---that is, if it was longer, it would be.

Alan, i realize that you are communicating to Ferry in terms that you think he will best understand, but i, for one, am not too proud to admit that i don't really understand these terms and i suspect that there may be others who also don't. Can these characteristics be described in English?

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2008, 11:45 PM

Yep, it can be done, but it really cannot be done with any facility in keris discussion, especially with somebody who is Javanese.Its really just a part of basic keris vocab; you could probably find it Ensiklopedi or one of the other standard references. I'll give meanings, rather than translations, which could result in even more confusion. I'll include the other foriegn words too just in case any new comers might be wondering what we're waffling on about. I'm always in favour of using English words rather than foriegn words, when English words are available, but sometimes they are not, so we just need to learn the correct technical terms.

nguceng mati--- refers to a gonjo shape, from the top looking down onto it, that has a pointed buntut urang
nyebit rontal---refers to the gonjo shape that curves in between the pesi and the buntut urang, and the buntut urang flares out a bit.
tuban--- a tangguh, or classification
sirah cecak --- the end of the gonjo above the gandik
buntut urang --- the other end of the gonjo
pawakan--- overall visual impression, but in this instance it refers to a part of the pawakan, which is the cross section
pijetan--- blumbangan--- depression at blade base
gandik--- raised roundish lump in front of blumbangan
segaluh--- a tangguh , or classification

"nguceng mati"; an "uceng" is a little fish, add the "ng" and it indicates "like", "mati" is "dead", so "like a little dead fish" which describes perfectly the shape of this type of gonjo.

"nyebit rontal" is ny (s)ebit ron tal; sebit is a variation of sebet, nyebet means "torn off" , ron is krama for godhong which means "leaf" , tal is the lontar palm which is what used to be used for writing leaves. So "nyebit rontal" means "a piece of lontar palm leaf". This leaf has a slight curl, and this curl approximates the curve between the part of the gonjo with the pesi hole through it, and the buntut urang.

ferrylaki · 15th May 2008, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Alan, i realize that you are communicating to Ferry in terms that you think he will best understand, but i, for one, am not too proud to admit that i don't really understand these terms and i suspect that there may be others who also don't. Can these characteristics be described in English?

David, I really sorry if my writings tend to make more confuseness.
I always try to use the easy vocabulary in keris discussion.
I realize that if only I could provide better pictures for every discussion it would be easier for us to understand.
In this case I believe Alan is the best person to describe those terms in keris vocabulary. as we all know, in javanese vocabulary there are inconsistency in the writing and spelling matter.
even for a javanese like my self still need the keris ensiclopedia to ensure that I do not make a missunderstand.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

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13th May 2008, 06:52 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Sorry Ferry, its not really good enough. Tell me, is the buntut urang nguceng mati ?

13th May 2008, 09:13 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	OK---thanks. What tangguh do you think it might be? Its too hard to guess from the pics. Its not a typical form and the proportions are peculiar. If you can lay a supportable tangguh onto it, you might be able to form an opinion as to whether it was made like this, or it has been shortened.

13th May 2008, 02:27 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yeah, it looks a bit Tubanishy, but I can't see if the sirah cecak is the right shape---looks a bit that way, but you really need to look straight down on it. A Tuban buntut urang is not quite nguceng mati, but it sure isn't nyebit rontal---its a straight,heavy, pretty ugly gonjo that looks like the tail has been cut off, which results in it looking like a shortened nguceng mati---that is, if it was longer, it would be. However the iron looks too black for Tuban. The Pawakan will be more or less ovoid if its Tuban. This blade seems to have some Tuban characteristics, but as always, its a bit hard to tell from a photo. Yeah, I'd say it could have been reshaped---the pawakan is out of balance---see the way it tends to sort of lean forward, but its not really leaning forward? Proportion and balance is wrong. But even so, its still not a real bad thing--- it all depends on whether you like it or not, and how much you paid for it. You'd be surprised at some of my favourite keris.

14th May 2008, 02:48 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Ferry, we do what we can. As I said, some of my favourite keris would surprise you. Its all a matter of if you like it. Recognise what we have and like or dislike according to feeling. This is different to forming an opinion based upon appraisal. What do you mean by the pijetan looks suspicious?

14th May 2008, 11:45 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yep, it can be done, but it really cannot be done with any facility in keris discussion, especially with somebody who is Javanese.Its really just a part of basic keris vocab; you could probably find it Ensiklopedi or one of the other standard references. I'll give meanings, rather than translations, which could result in even more confusion. I'll include the other foriegn words too just in case any new comers might be wondering what we're waffling on about. I'm always in favour of using English words rather than foriegn words, when English words are available, but sometimes they are not, so we just need to learn the correct technical terms. nguceng mati--- refers to a gonjo shape, from the top looking down onto it, that has a pointed buntut urang nyebit rontal---refers to the gonjo shape that curves in between the pesi and the buntut urang, and the buntut urang flares out a bit. tuban--- a tangguh, or classification sirah cecak --- the end of the gonjo above the gandik buntut urang --- the other end of the gonjo pawakan--- overall visual impression, but in this instance it refers to a part of the pawakan, which is the cross section pijetan--- blumbangan--- depression at blade base gandik--- raised roundish lump in front of blumbangan segaluh--- a tangguh , or classification "nguceng mati"; an "uceng" is a little fish, add the "ng" and it indicates "like", "mati" is "dead", so "like a little dead fish" which describes perfectly the shape of this type of gonjo. "nyebit rontal" is ny (s)ebit ron tal; sebit is a variation of sebet, nyebet means "torn off" , ron is krama for godhong which means "leaf" , tal is the lontar palm which is what used to be used for writing leaves. So "nyebit rontal" means "a piece of lontar palm leaf". This leaf has a slight curl, and this curl approximates the curve between the part of the gonjo with the pesi hole through it, and the buntut urang.