Scottish basket hilts and edged weapons

M ELEY · 14th February 2008, 07:41 AM

Invariably, someone will mention the Italian schiavonna being a predecessor to the baskethilt, but I've always failed to see the true similarity. True, though, that the basket hilt wasn't in Scotland in the period pre-1600, making one wonder if there might be some connection. The claymores of William Wallace being the fancy in those earlier times. Still, I don't think that a surrounding hand guard/hilt was found only on schiavonna (the so-called Sinclaire saber comes to mind). What I do wish to know, however, is did these swords truly originate in Scotland or more in England. English baskets seem to have been around for the same time period and of the basic pattern. Likewise, I'm interested to learn more on the significance of the backsword (single-bladed, for cavalry??, horse-back?) vs the broadsword. Excellent to see this thread on what I deem to be an ethnographic sword (certainly the ones whose decoration/symbols and individual forging make them unique, not the latter Regiment models)...

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2008, 01:29 PM

Hi Mark,
Its great to see you in on this one! and the questions and notes you bring up are exactly those I hope we can resolve in some degree here. The old schiavona chestnut was contrived back in the Victorian collecting days by one of the sages of that time. I need to find the notes on who that was, as well as on the schiavona, which developed independantly and I believe later than the earliest basket hilts. The 'Sinclair' sabres were indeed similar in the surround basket guard form in variation, but as you note, the basket hilt existed in England as well in these early times, and I believe the term exists in Shakespeares work .

Good suggestion on the broadsword vs. the backsword, and if I am not mistaken the Scottish basket hilts were typically broadswords, as they were for fighting on foot. From what I understand of Scottish fencing, these double edged blades were most effective in the distinct method they were used (and I look forward to more on this from Mr. MacDonald, who is not only a professional restorer, but a Master of Arms).
The single blade backswords, as you note, were I believe cavalry weapons that came in about mid 18th century, and although many of these carried Scottish style basket hilts, they were actually English swords.

In any case, I would like to know more specifically on these questions as well, and I'm glad you brought them in here. Thanks very much Mark.

All the best,
Jim

Berkley · 14th February 2008, 02:12 PM

Jim McDougall wrote:

Quote:

the basket hilt existed in England as well in these early times, and I believe the term exists in Shakespeares work .

Thanks to the Internet, such things are much easier to find than in the days long ago when I was a struggling English major

Shakespeare wrote:

Quote:

Away, you cut-purse rascal! you filthy bung, away! By this
wine, I'll thrust my knife in your mouldy chaps, an you play
saucy cuttle with me. Away, you bottle-ale rascal! you
basket-hilt stale juggler, you! Since when, I pray you, sir?
God's light, with two points on your shoulder? Much!

-Henry IV, Part II; Act II, Scene 4.
Footnote to The Yale Shakespeare indicates the term is used literally: "referring to the basket-shaped steel hand-guard on the hilt of Pistol's sword".

Henk · 14th February 2008, 07:16 PM

A most interesting thread. I hope to learn a lot from it.
Norman, a lovely sgian dubh and dirk. Thank you for sharing.

I really hope to see more beautiful artifacts from Scotland.

14th February 2008, 07:41 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Scottish Basket hilts Invariably, someone will mention the Italian schiavonna being a predecessor to the baskethilt, but I've always failed to see the true similarity. True, though, that the basket hilt wasn't in Scotland in the period pre-1600, making one wonder if there might be some connection. The claymores of William Wallace being the fancy in those earlier times. Still, I don't think that a surrounding hand guard/hilt was found only on schiavonna (the so-called Sinclaire saber comes to mind). What I do wish to know, however, is did these swords truly originate in Scotland or more in England. English baskets seem to have been around for the same time period and of the basic pattern. Likewise, I'm interested to learn more on the significance of the backsword (single-bladed, for cavalry??, horse-back?) vs the broadsword. Excellent to see this thread on what I deem to be an ethnographic sword (certainly the ones whose decoration/symbols and individual forging make them unique, not the latter Regiment models)...

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14th February 2008, 01:29 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, Its great to see you in on this one! and the questions and notes you bring up are exactly those I hope we can resolve in some degree here. The old schiavona chestnut was contrived back in the Victorian collecting days by one of the sages of that time. I need to find the notes on who that was, as well as on the schiavona, which developed independantly and I believe later than the earliest basket hilts. The 'Sinclair' sabres were indeed similar in the surround basket guard form in variation, but as you note, the basket hilt existed in England as well in these early times, and I believe the term exists in Shakespeares work . Good suggestion on the broadsword vs. the backsword, and if I am not mistaken the Scottish basket hilts were typically broadswords, as they were for fighting on foot. From what I understand of Scottish fencing, these double edged blades were most effective in the distinct method they were used (and I look forward to more on this from Mr. MacDonald, who is not only a professional restorer, but a Master of Arms). The single blade backswords, as you note, were I believe cavalry weapons that came in about mid 18th century, and although many of these carried Scottish style basket hilts, they were actually English swords. In any case, I would like to know more specifically on these questions as well, and I'm glad you brought them in here. Thanks very much Mark. All the best, Jim

14th February 2008, 07:16 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	A most interesting thread. I hope to learn a lot from it. Norman, a lovely sgian dubh and dirk. Thank you for sharing. I really hope to see more beautiful artifacts from Scotland.