Raksasa

VVV · 4th February 2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...(snip) We see all this artistic variety and abstraction in Javanese keris handles, and we would not be human if we did not try to affix identities to those hilt figures.However, the truth could be vastly different from our hypotheses, and at this remove it is impossible know with any certainty what that truth may be.Most especially is it impossible in the case of representation bearing a set of unique characteristics that prevents it being aligned with known and acknowledged forms.

Alan,

Probably I misunderstood your earlier posts on what you wanted to state with your questions.
As well as the "societal dominance by Islam"-part.
On the quote above it seems like we agree.

You who don't want to give a public opinion based on that you can't prove it for sure (which I of course respect as the proper professional way).

And I who, being human

, can't help to speculate in an identity. But I specify it as a "could be" and that "I am open to other suggestions". The reason for this is of course that I am curious on other people's, like yours, Tunggulametung's and other forumites', ideas on this hilt. This even if we probably never will be able to 100% prove what it actually was supposed to be and symbolize.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2008, 08:41 PM

In face to face conversation with a group of friends, maybe after dinner, and over a couple ports, this type of speculation and discussion has a place. Nothing is on record, we can float the most outlandish possibilities, and nobody really cares, its just conversation to fill time . Nobody pins us down to any sort of critical thinking or standard, we are not called on to justify anything, nor to substantiate anything. We can simply say what we think something might look like, and nobody is sufficiently ill-mannered to point out that we know absolutely nothing about the culture, society, or history that produced the item, nor about the item itself. We float an opinion, have another glass of port and move on to discussion of the prices at last week's yearling sales.

However, in this Forum, our little Warung Kopi, we have managed to gather together some fairly serious people, who are in turn fairly serious about the subjects that are discussed. A casual reader, or a reader who did not understand the nuances of the English language, could interpret a speculative claim for something as an authoritative claim, and that claim can be repeated in other places, eventually damaging the reputation of the person who speculated, and of the discussion group which allowed the speculation to pass without challenge. Once the reputation of any person, or organisation is damaged, it is very difficult to reclaim the former good reputation. Keris Warung Kopi is an organisation, and for our own credibility, we need to protect the reputation of our organisation.

Battara · 4th February 2008, 10:25 PM

I agree with Alan that many things did change with the cultural acceptance of Islam for Java and others. This also happened in the southern Philippines. Now there were still old practices that did not die out then, but for example, the use of clear images of animals and people changed to more abstract forms. This occured the area of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the southern Philippines to follow the edict of "no graven images". Just one example among many. I thus find more abstract expressions than not in kris hilts among areas that are not Balinese or Madura.

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4th February 2008, 08:41 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,046	In face to face conversation with a group of friends, maybe after dinner, and over a couple ports, this type of speculation and discussion has a place. Nothing is on record, we can float the most outlandish possibilities, and nobody really cares, its just conversation to fill time . Nobody pins us down to any sort of critical thinking or standard, we are not called on to justify anything, nor to substantiate anything. We can simply say what we think something might look like, and nobody is sufficiently ill-mannered to point out that we know absolutely nothing about the culture, society, or history that produced the item, nor about the item itself. We float an opinion, have another glass of port and move on to discussion of the prices at last week's yearling sales. However, in this Forum, our little Warung Kopi, we have managed to gather together some fairly serious people, who are in turn fairly serious about the subjects that are discussed. A casual reader, or a reader who did not understand the nuances of the English language, could interpret a speculative claim for something as an authoritative claim, and that claim can be repeated in other places, eventually damaging the reputation of the person who speculated, and of the discussion group which allowed the speculation to pass without challenge. Once the reputation of any person, or organisation is damaged, it is very difficult to reclaim the former good reputation. Keris Warung Kopi is an organisation, and for our own credibility, we need to protect the reputation of our organisation.

4th February 2008, 10:25 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	I agree with Alan that many things did change with the cultural acceptance of Islam for Java and others. This also happened in the southern Philippines. Now there were still old practices that did not die out then, but for example, the use of clear images of animals and people changed to more abstract forms. This occured the area of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the southern Philippines to follow the edict of "no graven images". Just one example among many. I thus find more abstract expressions than not in kris hilts among areas that are not Balinese or Madura.