Mystery Sword Help Needed.

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2008, 05:25 PM

Hello,
This arrived in the post this morning, my ideas are limited so please feel free. Overall length 34 inches, blade 29 1/4 inches, width 1 3/8 inches, bone handle I think and possibly, hopefully some age, certainly feels and looks like it. I think I've covered half the globe in the last couple of hours from Eastern Europe to Turkey to North Africa and Arabia and I'm feeling travel sick so please help if you can.
Regards,
Norman.

CharlesS · 3rd January 2008, 05:55 PM

My guess is a bedouin sword, possibly from Arabia, but more likely N. Africa.

ariel · 3rd January 2008, 06:05 PM

The blade surely looks N African.
The so-called "Bedouin" swords usually are much more sophisticated than this one, with a shashka-like handle etc.
But I tend to agree with Charles: it certainly looks like it belonged to a Bedouin. A poor, undernourished, one-goat Bedouin, but a Bedouin nevertheless.

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2008, 06:46 PM

Hello,
I paid less than eighteen U.S.D. including postage so from what you say that's probably about right, maybe that's enough for another goat.
Regards,
Norman.

Henk · 3rd January 2008, 07:23 PM

It's appearance might not be superb, but nevertheless I think it's a fine blade.
Probably in the past it looked more sophisticated but the last Bedouin-owner made it to a usefull sword in his opinion.

TVV · 3rd January 2008, 07:29 PM

Norman,
My first thought when I saw your sword was that the blade resembles those found on the mystery Berber swords from the Maghreb (or Latin America). However, Charles and Ariel are probably right about it being a Bedouin sword from the Sinai or wherever those were used. The two types seem close enough, both geographically and in terms of blade shape.
I am not quite sure I understand you correctly, but are you saying that you acquired the sword in North Africa?
Regards,
Teodor

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2008, 07:42 PM

Hello,
The sword was bought from e-bay U.K. I was the only bidder hence the price. Seemed to me worth a bit more but the photograph was very bad so maybe nobody wanted to take a chance. The goat reference was just a jocular riposte to the previous reply. Hope this clears things up.
Regards,
Norman

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2008, 07:57 PM

Hello again,
I have to agree with Henk regardless of its looks it's not a bad blade to handle, light and quick I certainly wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of a well aimed swipe. Although the blade may have found its way to N. Africa did it start its life there? It looks more like a European sabre blade to me although possibly not heavy enough, everything seems to have been copied from time to time and from culture to culture including blade type so maybe difficult to pin down. Can anybody hazard a guess as to age.
Regards,
Norman.

VANDOO · 3rd January 2008, 08:03 PM

THE SWORD MAY HAVE LOOKED LIKE THESE IN THE PAST AT ANY RATE A VERY GOOD DEAL AND SOMETHING NO ONE IS GOING TO SAY IS MADE RECENTLY FOR SALE TO TOURISTS. A GOOD OLD PIECE WITH A HISTORY IF ONLY IT COULD TELL THE TALE.

katana · 3rd January 2008, 11:17 PM

I think its a great ethnographic sword .... sure it has no frills ...but it is a good honest weapon .... love the blade. I'm sure it (the blade) has seen some history and was later rehilted, North Africa does seem likely.

Without doubt I would welcome it into my collection.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 4th January 2008, 01:20 AM

This very crudely mounted and produced blade is quite similiar to machete type blades that were produced in Solingen in the 19th century (see W.Gilkerson, "Boarders Away") . Obviously this piece is much cruder and the markings are accordingly crude imitations of the Solingen 'talismanic' groupings of the latter 18th century.
While this workmanlike piece certainly might have been from the Bedouin regions of N.Africa, such pieces are equally found in Central America and Caribbean regions but these typically had the genuine Solingen blades. Since this seems lighter and copied, I would be inclined toward N.African regions and probably more for the Sinai region. The simple Bedouin swords, though most seem to have more of a shaped hilt (I'm sure Ariel will share his examples

this possibly might be a crude rank and file item. I think this piece is probably early to mid 20th century.

The 'Berber' swords illustrated and suggested , are from many years of discussion where they are claimed to be from Moroccan regions, however thier blades are nearly always profiled tip military blades (usually British M1796 light cavalry blades, but some later cavalry sabre blades from varying nationalities). These blades typically have nothing to do with the Solingen trade blades, but more often can be Solingen blades from captured or surplus military sabres.
Interestingly, recent information has suggested that these distinctly recognizable sabres may not be Moroccan at all, and thoughts toward entirely different spheres have come up. One of the most interesting factors carrying this thinking has been the complete absence of these in any collected weapons groupings from Morocco throughout the 19th century and into the 20th, particularly the Charles Buttin collection. This most distinguished collector of ethnographic weapons lived much of his life in Morocco and it seems amazing that this distinct form would have eluded his comprehensive study of Moroccos weapons.
In any case, though very similar in genre, these 'Berber' sabres would probably not be associated with the weapon posted here.
As Vandoo has well said, another simple weapon with undoubtedly great stories to tell!

Best regards,
Jim

3rd January 2008, 05:25 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Mystery Sword Help Needed. Hello, This arrived in the post this morning, my ideas are limited so please feel free. Overall length 34 inches, blade 29 1/4 inches, width 1 3/8 inches, bone handle I think and possibly, hopefully some age, certainly feels and looks like it. I think I've covered half the globe in the last couple of hours from Eastern Europe to Turkey to North Africa and Arabia and I'm feeling travel sick so please help if you can. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

3rd January 2008, 08:03 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE SWORD MAY HAVE LOOKED LIKE THESE IN THE PAST AT ANY RATE A VERY GOOD DEAL AND SOMETHING NO ONE IS GOING TO SAY IS MADE RECENTLY FOR SALE TO TOURISTS. A GOOD OLD PIECE WITH A HISTORY IF ONLY IT COULD TELL THE TALE. Attached Images

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3rd January 2008, 05:55 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	My guess is a bedouin sword, possibly from Arabia, but more likely N. Africa.

3rd January 2008, 06:05 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade surely looks N African. The so-called "Bedouin" swords usually are much more sophisticated than this one, with a shashka-like handle etc. But I tend to agree with Charles: it certainly looks like it belonged to a Bedouin. A poor, undernourished, one-goat Bedouin, but a Bedouin nevertheless.

3rd January 2008, 06:46 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hello, I paid less than eighteen U.S.D. including postage so from what you say that's probably about right, maybe that's enough for another goat. Regards, Norman.

3rd January 2008, 07:23 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	It's appearance might not be superb, but nevertheless I think it's a fine blade. Probably in the past it looked more sophisticated but the last Bedouin-owner made it to a usefull sword in his opinion.

3rd January 2008, 07:29 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,623	Norman, My first thought when I saw your sword was that the blade resembles those found on the mystery Berber swords from the Maghreb (or Latin America). However, Charles and Ariel are probably right about it being a Bedouin sword from the Sinai or wherever those were used. The two types seem close enough, both geographically and in terms of blade shape. I am not quite sure I understand you correctly, but are you saying that you acquired the sword in North Africa? Regards, Teodor

3rd January 2008, 07:42 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hello, The sword was bought from e-bay U.K. I was the only bidder hence the price. Seemed to me worth a bit more but the photograph was very bad so maybe nobody wanted to take a chance. The goat reference was just a jocular riposte to the previous reply. Hope this clears things up. Regards, Norman

3rd January 2008, 07:57 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hello again, I have to agree with Henk regardless of its looks it's not a bad blade to handle, light and quick I certainly wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of a well aimed swipe. Although the blade may have found its way to N. Africa did it start its life there? It looks more like a European sabre blade to me although possibly not heavy enough, everything seems to have been copied from time to time and from culture to culture including blade type so maybe difficult to pin down. Can anybody hazard a guess as to age. Regards, Norman.

3rd January 2008, 11:17 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I think its a great ethnographic sword .... sure it has no frills ...but it is a good honest weapon .... love the blade. I'm sure it (the blade) has seen some history and was later rehilted, North Africa does seem likely. Without doubt I would welcome it into my collection. Regards David

4th January 2008, 01:20 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This very crudely mounted and produced blade is quite similiar to machete type blades that were produced in Solingen in the 19th century (see W.Gilkerson, "Boarders Away") . Obviously this piece is much cruder and the markings are accordingly crude imitations of the Solingen 'talismanic' groupings of the latter 18th century. While this workmanlike piece certainly might have been from the Bedouin regions of N.Africa, such pieces are equally found in Central America and Caribbean regions but these typically had the genuine Solingen blades. Since this seems lighter and copied, I would be inclined toward N.African regions and probably more for the Sinai region. The simple Bedouin swords, though most seem to have more of a shaped hilt (I'm sure Ariel will share his examples this possibly might be a crude rank and file item. I think this piece is probably early to mid 20th century. The 'Berber' swords illustrated and suggested , are from many years of discussion where they are claimed to be from Moroccan regions, however thier blades are nearly always profiled tip military blades (usually British M1796 light cavalry blades, but some later cavalry sabre blades from varying nationalities). These blades typically have nothing to do with the Solingen trade blades, but more often can be Solingen blades from captured or surplus military sabres. Interestingly, recent information has suggested that these distinctly recognizable sabres may not be Moroccan at all, and thoughts toward entirely different spheres have come up. One of the most interesting factors carrying this thinking has been the complete absence of these in any collected weapons groupings from Morocco throughout the 19th century and into the 20th, particularly the Charles Buttin collection. This most distinguished collector of ethnographic weapons lived much of his life in Morocco and it seems amazing that this distinct form would have eluded his comprehensive study of Moroccos weapons. In any case, though very similar in genre, these 'Berber' sabres would probably not be associated with the weapon posted here. As Vandoo has well said, another simple weapon with undoubtedly great stories to tell! Best regards, Jim