Figural Dagger - Esmeralda?

[katana]

Hi Bill,
done a little more research, and think I may have some answers.

Esmeralda, was kidnapped from her home whilst a young girl. Her original name (in Hugo's book) is Agnes and was changed by the Gypsies to Esmeralda, (a Spanish name for emerald). In fact the purse (green silk) around her neck contains a green piece of glass to remind her of her name (emerald-Esmeralda). Now it gets a bit more interesting, Agnes, her given name, is the name of a virgin martyr Saint. She is the patron saint of chastity, gardeners, girls, engaged couples, rape victims and virgins.

"......According to her legend, Saint Agnes was a member of the Roman nobility born c. 291 and raised in a Christian family. She suffered martyrdom at the age of thirteen during the reign of the Eastern Roman Emperor Diocletian, on January 21, 304.

The prefect Sempronius wished Agnes to marry his son, and on Agnes' refusal he condemned her to death. Roman law did not permit the execution of virgins, Sempronius had a naked Agnes dragged through the streets to a brothel. As she prayed, her hair grew and covered her body. It was also said that all of the men who attempted to rape her were immediately struck blind. When led out to die she was tied to a stake, but the bundle of wood would not burn, whereupon the officer in charge of the troops drew his sword and struck off her head, or, in some other texts, stabbed her in the throat.

A few days after Agnes' death, a girl named Emerentiana was found praying by her tomb; she claimed to be the daughter of Agnes' wet nurse, and was stoned to death after refusing to leave the place and reprimanding the pagans for killing her foster sister. Emerentiana was also later canonized...."

Agnes is represented in art as a blonde young girl in robes, holding a palm branch in her hand and a lamb ( Esmeralda a goat) at her feet or in her arms.



It would seem that Esmeralda Character is based on St Agnes.

Interestingly both Agnes and Esmeralda died by trauma to the neck ...... I think that is why the neck position is so exaggerated.

Kind Regards
David

[David]

I think the neck position was merely the artist's attempt to depict the character (Esmeralda) looking lovingly at the goat. This is a nice dagger, but Michelangelo this artist ain't.
We could spend a great deal of time discussing Hugo's work Notre-Dame de Paris and exactly what his intention were in his development of the character of Esmeralda, but this is not a literary forum and i would be willing to bet that the artist who created this knife did it as a direct rendition of the character from the book, not Hugo's deeper modivations or influences such as the story of St. Agnes (as interesting as that story might be).
Bottom line Bill is that IMHO, sometimes a goat is just a goat and a strange neck bend just that as well. Even though you are dismissing the early, rather rediculous idea that this was some kind of "satanic" dagger you still seem to be looking for the occult in this blade. I don't think you will every find it in any convincing manner. Personally i think this blade is just what it appears to be, a nicely crafted commemorative depicting a scene from Victor Hugo's Hunchback novel, which was, indeed, about much more than a love affair between a beauty and a grotesque.
Hugo's original title Notre-Dame de Paris is so named because he felt that the cathedral itself was the main character of the book. The fact that it is upside-down on the sheath, if one chooses to orient it that way (maybe it's Esmeralda and the goat that are upside-down ) i believe is merely because the shape of a cathedral comes to a natural point like the dagger.
This link was probably posted in the original thread but here goes anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hun..._of_Notre_Dame

[spiral]

David heres another dagger you might find interesting?



From this thread, many more photos...


linky




Intresting & revealing to see the emotians this peace still raises for some... & where they are with it.

Interesting discusian chaps!


Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

David heres another dagger you might find interesting?
Intresting & revealing to see the emotians this peace still raises for some... & where they are with it.
Interesting discusian chaps!

I do indeed find it interesting Spiral. Is a a "Satanic Dagger" once used in black rituals? Who knows? It is interesting though that another dagger with an identical hilt also turned up on the BladesForum thread so it seems this one had at least a limited run once. That might tell you something about it.
I wonder if Rodin's Gates of Hell are considered "Satanic Gates" by the same people who label these "Satanic Daggers"?
Spiral, i must say i am intrigued. Exactly what emotions do you think you see rising in these posts that are so revealing to you. Maybe you are looking at mirrors. I would love to learn your trick for reading between the lines.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

I do indeed find it interesting Spiral. Is a a "Satanic Dagger" once used in black rituals? Who knows? It is interesting though that another dagger with an identical hilt also turned up on the BladesForum thread so it seems this one had at least a limited run once. That might tell you something about it.
I wonder if Rodin's Gates of Hell are considered "Satanic Gates" by the same people who label these "Satanic Daggers"?
Spiral, i must say i am intrigued. Exactly what emotions do you think you see rising in these posts that are so revealing to you. Maybe you are looking at mirrors. I would love to learn your trick for reading between the lines.

I have no idea David about that dagger either, same as you.

When I originaly posted the esmerelda dagger my assumptions were based on a few examples I had seen in various threads. {Which the more examples one reads the more one spots errors generaly.} Luckily I still learn more about many things evry week & try not to hold on to unprooven knoweledge for to long.

I explained earlier in this thread where I am with this know.

Glad you found the linked knife interesting. Its looks "satanic" so I personaly would accept it bieng called that but so does much old art.

No mirrors or emotians in this one for me anymore David.

Just thought I could see some new bright angles mentioned & discused by some & some other comments that would have fitted better in the first thread, rather than this one

But its all eye of the beholder, I guess. Perheps I was mistaken. Only the writer of each post in this thread will know what this knife & its past threads hold for them.

Personaly I thought the neck of Esmerelda was made at that angle so it made her neck & shuolder a more comfterable place to lay ones thumb.

But that was just my reaction to it. Artistic licence, deeper meaning, all of the above? who knows? Intresting though.

Its a nice dagger I think.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

This sold for a good bit over £100 in spite of the seller calling it a paper knife. This surely establishes these as theme daggers much like the fantasy work of today.




Could make a nice toy to play with, if you like that sort of thing

[spiral]

Nice peace Tim, quite common though..

Thats one of the famous ones made by G Wostenholm in Sheffield, one of a serious of 6 i recall? {as I said earlier, my learning has moved on.}

You didnt buy it? I am speachless. Each to thier own I guess.

Heres another one....





From.

linky

Have a look at the price Tim. With a proper discription the seller would have done well.

But surely to my mind a dagger with a satanic theme should be called a "satanic" dagger with a Mohican theme should be called "Mohican"?

One with flowers all over it would be called "floral"?

No one in this thread has refered to them as a ritual knives, that thread was last year...


Spiral

[katana]

Hi,
I agree that sometimes 'things are what they are' and that others can create meaning to an object that has none. However, I do not assume this to be so for any object, I try to keep an 'opened mind'...'collect' possible facts first and then take an educated 'guess' from that info. The possible symbolism, could be relavent, this may indeed be a themed dagger in conception.....but later owners may have drawn their own conclusions and could have been used as a so called 'satanic dagger' ...

But there are 'anomalies' with this dagger's hilt and scabbard which could be just 'mistakes' or omissions....or could have some meaning.

I agree, (as I said before) that Esmeralda is looking 'lovingly' at her pet goat. Her stance, the goats positioning etc supports this.Yet her eyes are 'lifeless' or closed, the goat on the other hand has detail to its eyes
You could argue that the classical statues of Greece also have this 'look', but originally the eyes were painted and due to time the paint has eroded.

Sorry to 'labour' this point but....I cannot understand why the craftsman whom produced the scabbard put the tiles 'right way up' to the viewer but 'upside' down to the orientation of the spire A very strange mistake......if indeed this was a mistake.

Spiral, have you found any info on the blade?

Regards David

[spiral]

I agree Katana figural daggers may have been made for varied purposes or used as such later in thier life. Same as many knives.

Some clearly have Satanic themes, others may or may not & some clearly dont. I have seen no evidence of these bieng ritual knives but dont say its impossible.

Many organsations , groups & indivduals, like particular knives for particular purposes after all.

The blade style is typical of French figural knives of the period, some of which have "satanic" themes & some of which dont. It does appear to have been cut out of an older blade though. This is also common of those with Satanic themes that often used blades from Napoleans Mamuluke daggers from about 1805? I seem to recall? Whether its common in French figural knives without "satanic" themes I dont know. But I rather suspect many of these were made by the same workshops of sculpters & old blades were available & perhaps saved employing a cutler with a forge? They were just, cut ground, drilled etc.

But that is just my conjecture.

Indeed Tim, I did enjoy that one while it was in my company.

Intrestingly I noticed "non knife" people particularily women found it fascinating. But then I guess most of them were artists.

Spiral