Chinese fork weapon

[fengmodao]

Chinese fork weapon

[VANDOO]

A VERY INTERESTING WEAPON, IN JAPAN THEY CALL IT A SAI AND THEY USUALLY HAVE A ROUND CENTRAL SPIKE NOT THREE SIDED LIKE YOUR EXAMPLE. THEY WERE USUALLY USED IN PAIRS AND WERE EFFECTIVE FOR PROTECTING AGAINST SWORDS AND COULD ALSO BE USED TO DISARM THE SWORDSMAN. THEY WERE USED BY THE POLICE IN EDO SOMETIMES TO DISARM AND CONTROL THE SAMURAI ALONG WITH THE HACHIWARA AND VARIOUS OTHER WEAPONS. WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE WEAPON IN CHINA ? AND HOW LONG IS YOUR EXAMPLE. THE REMAINS OF THE FACETED SHAPED POMMEL KNOB IS MOSTLY FOUND IN CHINESE DESIGN, A NICE EXAMPLE.

[fearn]

Hi Vandoo,

These weapons are common from (supposedly) India, through Indonesia (where they're called tjabang) up to Japan. They show the most diversity in form in Indonesia. Since they spread along the coast, they were probably carried by traders and sailors. I've seen Chinese, Indonesian, and Okinawan examples, and the Chinese examples often come from coastal provinces. Actually, I have a pair--modern, but real fun to play with.

Anyway, they're not great against swords, but they work pretty well against staves and other blunt weapons. The Okinawan police carried three of them, and supposedly you can hook three of them together to make a decent pair of handcuffs. The Edo police carried a jutte, which has a single hook, primarily as a symbol of authority, and they used it against peace-time samurai who didn't really know how to use their swords. During the Warring States period, Japanese cops worked in trios with pole weapons to subdue samurai, which tells you how dangerous they were. That's all from Donn Draeger's three-book series on Japanese martial arts.

My 0.02 cents,

F

[josh stout]

What I like about this one is it appears to be an older and finer example than most Chinese pieces I have seen. In particular the guard is very graceful and has less of a "village weapon" look to it than most. Also it looks like there is visible folding on the guard.
Josh

[Lew]

Also it looks like there is visible folding on the guard.
Josh[/QUOTE]

Josh

I also think this is an old authentic piece but the guard is probably forged wrought iron which would explain the layering affect.

Lew

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

...guard is probably forged wrought iron which would explain the layering affect.

Lew

Thanks for the tip. I don't really understand how wrought iron makes striations like that, but I am happy to take your word on it. The rest would have to be steel though would it not?
Josh

[katana]

Hi Josh,
I agree with Lew that the guard is probably wrought iron, ( the erroded surface 'texture' and 'striations' support this) the 'blade' could also be of the same material, softer than steel it would be resillient to sword blows (if this was used as Sai )

However, the smith could have used cementation (a process of heating iron with charcoal in a closed furnace so that the surface of the iron acquired a high carbon content. ) to harden the blade.(create steel)

Wrought iron purified iron. Pig iron is refined in a converter and then poured into molten iron silicate slag. The resulting semisolid mass is worked /hammered to squeeze out most of the slag. The wrought iron has a fibrous structure with threads of slag running through it; it is tough, malleable, ductile, corrosion resistant, and melts only at high temperatures. It is used to make rivets, bolts, pipes, chains, and anchors, and is also used for ornamental ironwork.


Regards David

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi everyone, from what I have read over the short years of my life, this type of weapon, like all weapons of these origins except the noble sword and a few other exceptions, the "sai" for want of a better word today, had their orgins in farm life, as did your staves, tonfa, flail, nunchaku etc. this style of weapon was once used in pairs for bailing hay, much like a large fork on a pole was used. I am not saying this example was but who knows what hands held it and when.....


Gav

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

For what it is worth, my 2 cents:

These weapons were essentially non-trenchant, though they could poke or even stab, and lacked an edge. They relied on their effectiveness on mass to inflict blows and as such were in no need of temper, soft iron sufficing. I am told that their effectiveness against swords principally lay in their being hurled against the swordsman whilst out of his/her range - Once within range they were used in a manner not too dissimilar to that of the European left hand parrying dagger.

This weapon was introduced to the modern world by Okinawan karate experts, who used it as a traditional weapon. along with several others, equally low tech. They were made by village blacksmiths and the layering reveled by the rust reveals the flow of the metal during the hammer forging process.

Cheers
Chris

[josh stout]

Thanks for the explanations on wrought iron. I still doubt that the business end (blade?) of this gen (sai in Japanese) is iron simply because I have seen many such Chinese sword breaking weapons such as bian and taichi rulers (chih) with tempered steel bodies. There are often some signs of folding, and signs of differential hardening at the edges. I have seen some polished ones where this is clear.

Am I correct in thinking that wrought iron would never be bright and shiny like steel?

The bian were designed to bite into a sword when they hit it, and severely damage it hence the advantage to hardened edges. In the case of the taichi chih, it was fashioned after actual rulers complete with "inch" marks, which would make it more of a craftsman's tool than an agricultural implement. It is interesting to think of the gen originating as a kind of pitchfork. It seems that many of these weapons were made after tools in order to avoid laws against carrying weapons.
Josh

[Chris Evans]

Hi Josh,

Originally Posted by josh stout

Thanks for the explanations on wrought iron. I still doubt that the business end (blade?) of this gen (sai in Japanese) is iron simply because I have seen many such Chinese sword breaking weapons such as bian and taichi rulers (chih) with tempered steel bodies. There are often some signs of folding, and signs of differential hardening at the edges. I have seen some polished ones where this is clear.

Am I correct in thinking that wrought iron would never be bright and shiny like steel?

The bian were designed to bite into a sword when they hit it, and severely damage it hence the advantage to hardened edges. In the case of the taichi chih, it was fashioned after actual rulers complete with "inch" marks, which would make it more of a craftsman's tool than an agricultural implement. It is interesting to think of the gen originating as a kind of pitchfork. It seems that many of these weapons were made after tools in order to avoid laws against carrying weapons.
Josh

My understanding is that apart from hurting the opponent, the primary aim of these weapons was to parry and trap the opposing sword. Damaging it was a secondary consideration. In this respect it is worth remembering that the quillons on Euro left hand parrying daggers were essentially wrought iron and they could trap sword blades without suffering damage.

As to whether these `sais' were tempered steel or soft iron, I guess is that it all depended on who did the forging. We are told that a lot of these weapons, depending on the time and place, were illegal, and were made clandestinely under less than ideal conditions. Also we are told that iron, let alone steel, was very scarce in Okinawa. Iron and steel in olden times was an expensive and hard to come by commodity.

Wrought iron can polish up fairly well and can also be case hardened. But to damage a sword, soft iron would have sufficed, though no doubt hardened steel would have been better. In any event, Japanse swords were notoriously easy to bend and have their edges chipped.

Cheers
Chris

[ZhenjieWu]

These kind of weapons were usually used by local police, together with another one-iron ruler (a simple iron board, about 1m long).

[Chris Evans]

ZhenjieWu

Could you tell us a little more? Are you atlking about Okinawa or other pasrts of Asia?

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

ZhenjieWu

Could you tell us a little more? Are you talking about Okinawa or other regions of Asia?

Cheers
Chris

[fearn]

Hi Chris,

According to the older texts, sai were often used by Okinawan constables. I'd guess that the Chinese form was also often carried by constables too.

F

[ZhenjieWu]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

ZhenjieWu

Could you tell us a little more? Are you atlking about Okinawa or other pasrts of Asia?

Cheers
Chris

Sure. Weapons like this were often used by Chinese local forces who did the same job as modern cops. Especially in the Tang dynasty (AD 618—AD 907). This kind of weapon was not in the list of weapons used by ancient Chinese regular army. Ancient Chinese cops used another weapon named iron ruler whose length was about 1 m. The third equipment of those people were long iron chain, whose function seemed to be handcuffs.

ZhenJie Wu