High Hopes, African Dahomey {razor?}

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 05:36 PM

Nicely done observation on the ram dao Manolo! That was key!
Tim, I've really enjoyed this thread a lot because its been a genuine learning experience. I have never been especially keen on most Asian weapons due to express focus on other fields, but with this I have gained interest and insight toward them.
Although this has proven to be other than what you anticipated, it seems to have opened new doors in my opinion, equally exciting. The best thing in this thread has been shared investigation and observation which is what I always hope for in these threads with unusual items!

So getting back to that, now that the item in the catalog seems compellingly similar and identified as ram dao, on the issue of the copper which I noted as an important West African material. I think it is important to note the key use of brass and copper in Tantric votive items and material culture in Nepal and Tibet, and Im sure extensively elsewhere throughout the Buddhist sphere. It would be interesting to hear more on that from Rand, who is well versed on items from these regions.
I think your observation on the black grips and association to Kali worship is also very interesting, and would like to learn more on that.

All the best,

Jim

Tim Simmons · 9th October 2007, 09:19 PM

look at this thread again. I think I am right that this is African saying loud and proud. hallelujah James Brown

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2007, 05:13 AM

OK Tim, whassup???

katana · 10th October 2007, 01:59 PM

How about this....

KNIFE, INCISED DECORATION
ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION
Catalog No: 70.0/ 7766
Culture: INDIAN, KOTA
Locale: NILGIRI HILLS
Country: INDIA
Material: METAL (STEEL), WOOD (KARPAMARU)
Dimensions: L:40 W:11.4 H:4.2 [in CM]
Donor: MANDELBAUM
Accession No: 1938-57

katana · 10th October 2007, 02:11 PM

Here is another 2 similar examples, smaller with a brass blade

KNIFE, DECORATED
ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION
Catalog No: 70.2/ 2050
Locale: BORNEO
Material: METAL (BRASS)
Dimensions: L:26 W:11 H:4 [in CM]
Donor: BOULTON
Accession No: 1951-84

KNIFE, DECORATED
ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION
Catalog No: 70.2/ 2051
Culture: KADAYAN ?
Locale: BORNEO, BRUNEI ?
Material: METAL (BRASS)
Dimensions: L:27 W:14 H:4 [in CM]
Donor: BOULTON
Accession No: 1951-84

Tim Simmons · 10th October 2007, 03:45 PM

Well done David!!! Clearly the knife is Indian. Interestingly the group of aboriginal tribes of the Nilgiris hills the Kota being one of them, besides being the smiths and artisans and the lowest caste largely resisted Hinduism though I do have a book "The Aboriginal Tribes of India. Stephen Fuchs, pub- India 1973 Uk 1977" where it is said that they followed Shiva and other deities. They kept buffalo which were used in ceremonies and eaten. One might expect to find a knife like this for skinning. Skinning has been mentioned before. I can find no reference to blood cults or human sacrifice in the Nilgiris hill though I do not know about times past {these acts could be kept secret} but that is not so for Tamil Nadu and Southern India.

Tim Simmons · 10th October 2007, 05:32 PM

I am really wired up and going to blow all the fuses. I have just got back from walking the dogs and my mind was working over time. Can things just drop into place over time or do I need to be neutered and muzzled

In the Nilgiris Hill when a buffalo is sacrificed it is done with a spear. I have always felt a purpose for this spear and assumed it was African by decoration as I did for this knife. I have not taken into consideration Indian aboriginal work. As mentioned the tribes in the Nilgiris hills may have incorporated Hindu thought into there own beliefs so the snake and Shiva, black and Kali could be displayed here. We know that brass and copper kept spiritual purity, perhaps all the more important with penetration. The killing and butchering of a buffalo still needing certain observances and implements. Is it possible that I have the spear and skinning knife? The damage to the blade not done by chopping but working around heavy bones. I will post pics of the people in question doing it in a funeral rite shortly.

10th October 2007, 01:59 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	How about this.... KNIFE, INCISED DECORATION ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION Catalog No: 70.0/ 7766 Culture: INDIAN, KOTA Locale: NILGIRI HILLS Country: INDIA Material: METAL (STEEL), WOOD (KARPAMARU) Dimensions: L:40 W:11.4 H:4.2 [in CM] Donor: MANDELBAUM Accession No: 1938-57 Attached Images

10th October 2007, 02:11 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Here is another 2 similar examples, smaller with a brass blade KNIFE, DECORATED ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION Catalog No: 70.2/ 2050 Locale: BORNEO Material: METAL (BRASS) Dimensions: L:26 W:11 H:4 [in CM] Donor: BOULTON Accession No: 1951-84 KNIFE, DECORATED ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION Catalog No: 70.2/ 2051 Culture: KADAYAN ? Locale: BORNEO, BRUNEI ? Material: METAL (BRASS) Dimensions: L:27 W:14 H:4 [in CM] Donor: BOULTON Accession No: 1951-84 Attached Images

10th October 2007, 05:32 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,986	A leap of faith I am really wired up and going to blow all the fuses. I have just got back from walking the dogs and my mind was working over time. Can things just drop into place over time or do I need to be neutered and muzzled In the Nilgiris Hill when a buffalo is sacrificed it is done with a spear. I have always felt a purpose for this spear and assumed it was African by decoration as I did for this knife. I have not taken into consideration Indian aboriginal work. As mentioned the tribes in the Nilgiris hills may have incorporated Hindu thought into there own beliefs so the snake and Shiva, black and Kali could be displayed here. We know that brass and copper kept spiritual purity, perhaps all the more important with penetration. The killing and butchering of a buffalo still needing certain observances and implements. Is it possible that I have the spear and skinning knife? The damage to the blade not done by chopping but working around heavy bones. I will post pics of the people in question doing it in a funeral rite shortly.

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6th October 2007, 05:36 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,849	Nicely done observation on the ram dao Manolo! That was key! Tim, I've really enjoyed this thread a lot because its been a genuine learning experience. I have never been especially keen on most Asian weapons due to express focus on other fields, but with this I have gained interest and insight toward them. Although this has proven to be other than what you anticipated, it seems to have opened new doors in my opinion, equally exciting. The best thing in this thread has been shared investigation and observation which is what I always hope for in these threads with unusual items! So getting back to that, now that the item in the catalog seems compellingly similar and identified as ram dao, on the issue of the copper which I noted as an important West African material. I think it is important to note the key use of brass and copper in Tantric votive items and material culture in Nepal and Tibet, and Im sure extensively elsewhere throughout the Buddhist sphere. It would be interesting to hear more on that from Rand, who is well versed on items from these regions. I think your observation on the black grips and association to Kali worship is also very interesting, and would like to learn more on that. All the best, Jim

9th October 2007, 09:19 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,986	look at this thread again. I think I am right that this is African saying loud and proud. hallelujah James Brown

10th October 2007, 05:13 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,849	OK Tim, whassup???

10th October 2007, 03:45 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,986	Well done David!!! Clearly the knife is Indian. Interestingly the group of aboriginal tribes of the Nilgiris hills the Kota being one of them, besides being the smiths and artisans and the lowest caste largely resisted Hinduism though I do have a book "The Aboriginal Tribes of India. Stephen Fuchs, pub- India 1973 Uk 1977" where it is said that they followed Shiva and other deities. They kept buffalo which were used in ceremonies and eaten. One might expect to find a knife like this for skinning. Skinning has been mentioned before. I can find no reference to blood cults or human sacrifice in the Nilgiris hill though I do not know about times past {these acts could be kept secret} but that is not so for Tamil Nadu and Southern India.