Between Solo and Yogya

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Raden, I find your analysis of the word "susuhunan" interesting, but I must put the question to you:- is this your own theory on the way in which the word "susuhunan" may have been formed from the word "sunan", or can you quote a reliable philological or lexicographic source?

Alan,

Specific to a word "susuhunan", it is blindly my own intepretation. Now, I am in Africa. I do not have any opportunities to check it to old Jawa person before posting here. However, I do not intepret a word "susuhunan" without any foundation. There are both lexicography and philosophy.

Lexicography
Repetition used in Jawa language for several purposes. One of them is to intensifying (even to make superlative). I want to reveal other words for example:
Lembut (Jawa) means soft
Lelembut (Jawa) means extremely soft
then... Jawa people used word "LELEMBUT" to describe "GHOST as general" because they believe the characteristic of matter of Ghosts is very very soft.

Selo (high Jawa) means stone
Seselo (high Jawa) means a lot of stones
Seselo is the name of place which there are a lot of stone there. This place was a home of the respectful ancestor of Mataram (then both Jogja and Surakarta, or four including Pakualaman and Mangkunegaran). His popular name was Ki Ageng Selo.
Responding to the statement of Penangsang that Mataram dinasty cames from "peasants". It seems the story (history) started from here. To Demak Kingdom or Northern Jawa Coastal Kingdoms, blue bloods means it had to have mixed blood between arabic (including some part of India, Asia Minor and even part of China) blood and majapahit royal line. It can be understood because at that time the hegemony of Islam begun. Simplicity, Arabic blood means the prophet Muhammad blood. He was the real King who had legitimate royal blood line. Selo and his offsprings were pure Jawa. They were considered as ordinary people. Ordinary people who inhabitted in remote/hinter land were PEASANT.
For Selo people, they tried to win the battle of realm politics at that time by making other intepretation. They used Mojopahit as a base of legitimation to rule Jawa. The father of Panembahan Senopati (first ruler of Mataram) was Ki Ageng Mataram. He was son of Ki Ageng Nis, grandson of Ki Ageng Selo, great grandson of (Ki Ageng Bondan Kejawen, Ki Ageng Getas Pendowo, Ki Ageng Lembu Peteng). Ki Ageng Lembu Peteng was son of King Brawijaya the Fifth (the last King of Majapahit Empire) from the cucumbent. According to Selo people point of view and pulled from Majapahit, even not son of the Queen, the royal blood line of Ki Ageng Pendowo was more legitimate (bluer)from Raden Patah of Demak. To integrate to hegemony at that time, Islamic era, Selo also needed GURU. Part of politics, respectful Sunan as Sunan Kudus refused these peasants. So these peasants chose Syeh Siti Jenar. At the end, because conflict of interest (blended politics, power and religion), the fate of Syeh Siti Jenar and his followere were "murdered", including Kebo Kenongo, father of Mas Karebet (wellknown as Joko Tingkir). After that, only Sunan Kalijogo accepted as "their GURU". So, Selo people had complete requirement to show in politic stage at that time (including Joko Tingkir).

Okay... back to Susuhunan for Alan

Philosophy,
King Hanyokrokusumo needed "Islamic" legitimation for ruling Jawa at that time. It was normal pattern of Kingdoms in Jawa. Kind of legitimation was an acknoledgement from the most sacred place/people. According to people at that time, the most sacred place was Mecca. the most sacred people was Rojo (h)ing ngeRum (the emperor of Turkey Ottoman) because Mecca was a province of ngeRum (turkey ottoman empire). King Hanyokrokusumo did not get this acknoledgement. He was very sad because while he did not get acknoledgment, one of his competitor got it (King of Banten). Thats why, Banten had never surrendered freely to King Hanyokrokusomo. And thats why, the use of Sultan came in the end of King Hanyokrowati reign. Even, the use of SULTAN AGUNG came long after his death. BUT, since then, the use of sinonym of KHALIFATULLAH was important in Mataram. Sultan, Sunan, Susuhunan were actually synonim of Khalifatullah. Khalifatullah means the representative of GOD to rule the world (of Jawa as centre of univerve). Why not directly using KHALIFAH. It was to high then could be cursed.

Two acknowledgement needed for ruler of Surakarta and Jogja (especially after Giyanti treaty). First and most important was an acknowlegment from NDORO EYANG KOMPENI (VOC or then DUTCH ADMINISTRATION). Without this acknowledgment, it could be end in abdication (softly or frontally) such as Hamengkubuwono II and VII or Mangkunegoro V. Second and not less important was an acknowlegment from society (moslem). The rebellion of Prince Diponegoro damage severely NDORO TUAN (dutch armies). Prince Diponegoro should be a ruler of Jogjakarta but NDORO TUAN did not acknowlegde/agree. However, the Jawa society (Islamic society) supported him. To sum up, Alan, this is one of explanation why ruler of Jogja and Surakarta need to use islamic term. Then, imho, both Sultan and Sunan are Islamic terms (lexicography and phulosophy).

warm salam,
Usmen

[PenangsangII]

dear Alan,

You are right when you said that I wished that we can base our reference on keris to that of Majapahit, but if that is not possible (due to lack of enough information), I would be glad enough to accept Mataram II as the point of reference. Moreover, during Mataram II era, keris had evolved from its primitive design (Budo, sajen etc) into more refined profile as we see it today. What I meant by "keris tradition" was everything about the keris, from the way it was forged, dapor, pamor, how it was worn, who should wear it, maintenance and other related issues including mbesut. I know that both schools would boast that they are the ones following the correct old tradition, but my question is, between these two schools, which one actually observes the old tradition. Similarly, I can post a relative question: would it be acceptable by Mataram II standard that rusty keris be "besuted"?

Mas Raden, I understand what you were trying to tell us about the blood line. It was not me who said that Mas Karebet was just a peasant (I could be biased too if you take into account my nick name here ), but my late grandfather who could trace his linage to the descendants of the 2nd wave immigrants, and my grandmother was from the 3rd wave immigrants. I can understand my grandfather's resentment towards Joko Tingkir appointment as the new Sultan. His great/great grandfather was fighting the foreign power's occupation of Nusantara land, while during / after Demak era, the king/s were busy fighting among themselves. Yes, he was biased, but I am not.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Gonjo, Alan, David, Penangsang and Kerislovers,

I would like to tell a story. Actually, this story fits both for this thread or “Keris and Spirit” thread. So, allow me to post it in both thread. Before starting my story, please after reading this story you will not ask me questions such as “Usmen, can you give me reference for your story?” It is time to me to ask you the reference (if any). Why? Because by asking reference, it likes demanding me to go back to school in Jawa whilst, now, I am in the midst of African jungle.

Let’s begin,

Days ago, I raise a question to Gonjo what kind of pusakas/heirlooms Surakarta Kingdom has (I do not remember the exact question by the way). Moreover, in this thread, some discussion revealed Paliyan Negari (the division of one state becoming two states equally) by Giyanti Treaty.

An actor of Jawa political leader at that time was RADEN MAS SAHID (founder of Mangkunegaran and son in law of PRINCE MANGKUBUMI, founder of Jogjakarta Kingdom). Latter, Raden Mas Sahid (Mas Sahid) was known as MANGKUNEGORO I and Prince Mangkubumi was known as HAMENGKU BUWONO I (HB I).

Mas Sahid’s childhood was very poor and sorry. Actually, he was high elevated person. However, he and his great family members (core and extended) were treated unfairly by the ruler at that time. The occupation of Mas Sahid was to care royal horses in stable. It was way to insult someone from high society at that time.

As a consequence of the treatment received, Mas Sahid did not have access to get “good and modern” education and did not have access to socialize with respectful class member. The most respectfull person who Mas sahid could access was only the Capitan of China named Mas Garendi or Sunan KUNING (?). So, the source of knowledge of Mas Sahid mostly came from AJARs/GURUs. Ajar or Guru had a PADEPOKAN/PAGURON/PERGURUAN. Before modern education spreaded widely in Jawa, ordinary children who want to get education went to padepokan as MURIDs of AJAR/GURU or went to PESANTREN as SANTRIs of KIAI/KYAI.

In padepokan, factuually in Jawa society till now, the legend of Mataram’s founder was preserved well and even cultivated hyperbolically. Before Giyanti’s Paliyan Negari, there were two times of Paliyan Negari in Jawa. The first one was Great Kendiri Kingdom divided into two kingdoms namely: Jenggala and Kediri. The second one was “quasi” Paliyan Negari between KI AGENG MATARAM and KI AGENG PENJAWI after the death of (h)ARYO PENANGSANG and the fall of PAJANG KINGDOM. Forget/abandon the first one (Kediri story) because it was irrelevant for my story now.

After the fall of Pajang, there was “quasi” paliyan negari between Ki Ageng Mataram dan Ki Ageng Penjawi. Kia Ageng Mataram was father of PANEMBAHAN SENOPATI, great grand father of SULTAN AGUNG. Ki Ageng Penjawi was father of PRAGOLOPATI I, grandfather of PRAGOLOPATI II. Pragolopatis were emperors of Pati and northern coastal area of Jawa. During paliyan negari negotiation, Ki Ageng Mataram showed less ambition in choosing territory. He let his foster older brother (Ki Ageng Penjawi) to occupy cultivated land and dense inhabitant and crowded harbour in northern Jawa. He just chose uncultivated land, namely ALAS MENTAOK (mentaok jungle). Even, he did not show his appetite to inherit the wealth of former Pajang Kingdom. In contrary, he demanded at all cost to get Pajang’s heirlooms: kerises, tombaks, kendalis, stones which considered as jimat/pusaka such as NYAI DELIMO (Queen Kalinyamat’s main heirloom).

Why did he choose only Alas Mentaok which strategic and economic perspectives were nothing?
Because in Jawa beliveness, in Alas Mentaok lies down WAHYU KEPRABON of Jawa after the fall of Majapahit. This wahyu had been waiting for its new master.

Why did he choose pusakas?
Having pusakas were part of requirement for preparing himself or his offspring as a proper place for Wahyu Keprabon. By having Wahyu Keprabon, power and wealth would follow behind. Lack of wahyu, every power and wealth would disappear by thousand causes. And historian wrote, Mataram Kingdom rose whilst Pati Empire fall down.

This legend of Mataram’s Founder believed deeply by Mas Said. He used it as a guidance of his path to find his glory. During Giyanti Paliyan Negari, the position of Mas Sahid was both warlord and son in law of Prince Mangkubumi. In negotiation, he advised Prince Mangkubumi to follow his ancestor way. Prince Mangkubumi agreed and follow this idea. He chose Jogjakarta but demanding the main heirlooms such as KIAI PLERED the legendary. At that time, Jogjakarta was transit place for copse of royal family who died somewhere and would buried in IMOGIRI or Surakarta. Compared with Surakarta/Kartosuro, Jogjakarta was far less attractive. However, the legend of Alas Mentaok inspired Father and Son in law. Perhaps, this story can also explain why Jogjakarta has more legendary heirlooms than Solo and why Surakarta palace artifact is more glorious than Jogja palace artifact.

After gaining war and getting Jogjakarta region, Prince Mangkubumi became HAMENGKU BUWONO I (HB I). Becoming HB I means becoming legitimate player. To run kingdom and to play power role at that time, the presence of wealth/money/cash resources was important. HB I felt that important and realized he was lack of those resources. Then, perhaps, he felt to follow Mas Sahid’s advises led to the wrong direction (?) The relationship of father and son in low deteriorated and ended in bitterness. HB I and his former enemy collaborated to attempt to kill Mas Sahid. Since then Mas Sahid started to realized, none can rely on his faith to other, even to beloved father in law. He started to struggle of power solely. Finally, he got what he wanted, a territory for him called Mangkunegaran and he became MANGKUNEGORO I (MN I).

The legacy of HB I (and MN I) of the importance aspect of spirit within pusakas (heirlooms) was so deep amongst Jogjakarta people. Now, it can be understood why spirit aspect of keris/tombak is quite importance for Jogja People. They expect wahyu/spirit inside pusakas (as their ancestor/kingdom founder espected). As Gonjowulung mentioned, Jogjanese/Jogja school/ Jogja genre tends to oppose to “NGLARAS” keris/tombak/pusakas. Why? Because they are afraid if by “DILARAS” keris’s spirit/wahyu/inner power will be downgraded. It is believed if keris/tombak is “fired” (reshaped or other action using fire) the inner power/wakyu/spirit will be corrected (even disappear). Yes, Alan is totally right (technical aspect point of view), by “DILARAS” the deterioration/corrotion of keris will be slower. However, amongst Jogjanese, preservation of keris as intangible heritage comes later. The first and most important is “SPIRIT INSIDE KERIS.

Okay… that is all for now. Hope you enjoy today story. Tomorrow I will bring another tale. But don’t forget…give your donation for orphanage. The small effort from you means a live for them.

Warm salam,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Goodness me, it seems as if we are stuttering here Pak Raden.

Well, as long as you are repeating yourself, I guess I will too.

Good yarn Raden, and not at all the sort of story one could ask for a reference to support. What you have given us is personal experience and personal opinion. No references needed for that.

Actually, prior to Mangkubumi collaborating with Mas Said, they had been opponents, then they came together, but as you have told, eventually they separated again.

This division of Jawa was something that the Dutch saw as a "divide and conquer" move, but what they did not realise was that the division of a kingdom was a relatively normal and regular occurrence in Jawa. In fact, for a long time after the division the ordinary people in Jawa thought that everything was going as usual. Things had always been like this, with two opposing seats of power, and sooner or later one or the other would triumph. Of course, this never happened, because the Dutch were there to keep a lid on things.

Actually the division in Javanese eyes took place a long time before the Dutch were forced to regularise it with the Treaty of Giyanti. Mangkubumi set up his seat of power in the area of present day Jogja in 1749. Its just that it took the Dutch 6 years to recognise it.By the time of Giyanti, Mangkubumi already had the support of most of the Javanese elites, and PBIII's position was weakened even further because those princes who had stayed loyal to Surakarta were arrested by the Dutch. At the time of Giyanti, poor old PBIII had almost no support at all. Because of the nature of Javanese kingship, this effectively meant that PBIII could not be king, as a Javanese king only functions by concensus. He cannot take nor make unilateral decisions, especially in matters of state. This was something that the Dutch did not understand, and was one of the prime reasons for the collapse of PBII. The Dutch saw their support of PBIII as Susuhunan as a continuation of legitimate line of descent. This was a European concept and out of place in Jawa.But the Dutch did not realise this. Had the Dutch not been players in the game none of the disasters of Kartosuro would have occurred, and the court scene in Jawa today would be considerably different to what it is. You might even take the viewpoint that the Jawa of the 19th and 20th centuries was a creation of the Dutch.

Just one very minor thing needs to be made clear from Raden's post:- when a keris blade is subjected to normal maintenance procedures involving cleaning up an edge, or tidying up a ganja or kembang kacang, this is done cold, and it is only done after asking permission of the maker of the blade and any presence which may be inside the blade. We do not just pick the blade up, throw it into a fire, and take to it with hammer, tongs and electric grinder.Correctly carried out it is an almost religious ceremony.

On the other hand, if a blade is to be reworked for commercial reasons, the approach is entirely different.

The simple fact of the matter is that not all blades are of the class that need to treated as the home of an entity; not all blades are the work of an empu; not all blades were made for a specific individual. We need to be able to differentiate between those keris which need to be treated as objects with a presence, and those keris which have no presence.Naturally, if one is unable to identify those keris which possess presence, then the safest thing to do is to treat all keris as if they had a presence.

Yes, I understand very clearly why people in Jogja act as they do.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Penangsang. Understood.

I think the ball is in Pak Ganja's court now:-

Pak Ganja, can you please tell us whether it is the Surakarta school of "kerisology", or the Jogjakarta school of "kerisology" that follows most closely the traditions of olden times, be those olden times taken as Majapahit, Mataram, or some other era?

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden,

Of all the places in Tanah Jawa, why Hutan Menataok is chosen by God as the resting place of the Wahyu Keprabon. I always thought that Wahyu Keprabon was only a sign from the Dewata, normally in the form of a light, and it would appear on the chosen Prabhu's forehead? The aura, it was said, can be seen by the people.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear Pak Raden,

Of all the places in Tanah Jawa, why Hutan Menataok is chosen by God as the resting place of the Wahyu Keprabon.

Dear Penangsang II,

It is a good question and it is hard to answer. I am afraid if we continue to discuss this matter (wahyu and hutan mentaok), we will break the rule of the game of warung keris. Why? Because the discussion will out of keris topic.

For eluding to be a trespasser (because breaking the law), I would like to ask the moderator (Sir David) and kerislovers to answer Penangsang's question once. So, after that hope we will be back on the track (no more of discussion on wahyu issues)

Why Alas Mentaok while so many jungles and mountains in Jawa?

According to wahyu keprabon, actually this myth is just for its believers. There are several chapters of Jawa civilization. Each chapter has a legend where wahyu keprabon hided before entering to the chosen person. Then, the chosen person becomes Prabu/King/Leader/President (now). Seemingly, there are several wahyu keprabons in Jawa, each wahyu rises in different period of Jawa civilization.

Once upon the time, long before Mataram era (post Majapahit era), Jawa's wahyu keprabon was believed hided in Alas Purwo (Jungle Purwo). So, lots of ambitious men went to this jungle to meditate for getting the wahyu. Ken Arok was one of them. At the end of the day, Ken Arok became the founder of Singosari Kingdom and had a new title, namely Sri Rajasa. He was a king and a founder of new dynasti of kings of Jawa.

Post Majapahit era, some people believed that wahyu keprabon hided in jungle mentaok. Amongst the believers were Ki Agen Mataram, Ki Ageng Mangir and Sultan Hadiwijoyo (Joko Tingkir, he was a soft beleiver). At that period, there was a distinguished sunan. He was Sunan Giri (giri means mountain). Sunan Giri was believed having ability whatever he said would come true. Someday, there was a gathering in Sunan Giri's home. The visitors of that gathering were kings from several regions in Jawa. The aim of their visit to Sunan Giri was to get his blessing to rule Jawa. Amongst those kings was Sultan Hadiwijoyo (and his staff including Ki Ageng Mataram). While everyone enjoyed the party (eating and drinking... perhaps till they dropped), Ki Ageng Mataram took care the garbits wasted crelessly by drunken kings. Sunan Giri paid attention to his special action and asked to his guests who the man was. Sultan Hadiwijoyo responded that that man was one of his staf, namely Ki Ageng Mataram. Sunan Giri told that his descendants (Ki Ageng Mangir) would be rulers of Jawa.

Sultan Hadiwijoyo announced that whoever killed Aryo Penangsang would be rewarded territory wherever he wanted. After killing Arya Penangsang (I ), actually Sutowijoyo's Father (Ki Ageng Mataram) chose jungle mentaok as the reward. Because remembering Sunan Giri statement, Sultan Hadiwijoyo tried to cancel his promise and lured Ki Ageng Mataram to choose other rewards. In short, Ki Ageng Mataram got jungle mentaok. He had never declared as a king because he felt what Sunan Giri said was true. Wahyu keprabon would never for him but, hopefully, for his decendants. After living in jungle mentaok, he always urged Danang Sutowijoyo (Panembahan Senopati) to meditate to realize their dream. Where? in parts of jungle mantaok, especially in mBanglampir Hill, Dlepih Khayangan fountain and, sure, South Sea's coast. Based on history, in its golden era, Mataram territory was most of Jawa island (excluded Batavia and Banten which never surrended), South Kalimantan and Jambi of Sumatera (as vatsals).

As I mentioned above, no all Jawa people believed that Wahyu Keprabon hided in jungle mentaok. Lots of Kings in Jawa did not believe that. Even, they felt that their royal blood were purer than Ki Ageng Mataram's and they created their own myth to support their legitimation. Thats why they did not surrender freely to Mataram. Lots of their surrender were by bloody war. Logically, if they shared the same believe about the myth of wahyu keprabon of jungle mentaok, soon after Ki Ageng Mataram got jungle mentaok as a reward, they would knee unanimously and voluntarily to Ki Ageng Mataram's descendant (Mataram Kingdom).


Where is the next wahyu keprabon after post Majapahit era?

In Jawa modern era, it is believed (again only to its believers) that the wahyu keprabon is hiding inside Alas Ketonggo (if I am not mistaken it is near Solo).

If you follows recent Indonesian political saga, a lot of prominent politicians get (some are still waiting in long queue for getting) royal titles of Surakarta Kingdom. Frankly speaking, politically and factually, Surakarta Kingdom now is powerless (extremely, Kingdom Surakarta is only a history, no more exist). But why do so many giant Indonesian politicians try to get royal title from there. For nothing? No, there must be a motive in every political move. Some people believe that one of their motives is by having Jawa royal title they feel becoming eligible to get wahyu keprabon which is now still in Alas Ketonggo.

Surprisingly, now, this myth is not monopolized by Jawa people. Some of Solo royal title awardee are from other islands. To some extends, it becomes Indonesia myth (wider by its belivers)

Okay... it's better stopped here and back to keris discussion. Do not as why/where jungle ketonggo is whilst, now, there is not jungle anymore in Indonesia..... hahahahaaaa.... illegal logging and deforestation ARE NOT MYTHS in INDONESIA. Lets fight agianst... alle alle alle

warms regards,

Usmen

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think the ball is in Pak Ganja's court now:-

Pak Ganja, can you please tell us whether it is the Surakarta school of "kerisology", or the Jogjakarta school of "kerisology" that follows most closely the traditions of olden times, be those olden times taken as Majapahit, Mataram, or some other era?

Dear Alan, Raden Usman, David, Penangsang and All,

Apologize me, for my late responding of Alan’s question. It’s been five days I was “off air” because of my total concentration for another business. Thanks a lot for your patience…

I am sorry Alan, I’d better choose “solo school” and “jogja school” instead of “kerisology”. Would you mind if I do that?

It is quite fair if we compare the cultural products of the best era of both schools. Especially in their keris world. The best of Paku Buwono era in keris making, was happened during the reign of their richest king, Susuhunan Paku Buwono X (1893-1939). Coincidentally, in Jogja, it happened in the same era, during the reign of their richest king too, of Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII (1877-1921).

It was the most peaceful era among the two “rivals”, between Jogja and Solo. And the golden era of Javanese palace royal dances, traditional music, and also keris making, happened too in the reign of these richest kings. One of the two consorts of king PB X, was GKR Hemas – the daughter of HB VII in Jogjakarta. King PB X had two consorts, and more than 34 mistresses. (At least, 34 mistresses had the royal descents…).

Someday, I hope to write more details on the comparison of the style of kerises from these two richest kings of Jogja and Solo. And better too, if I will be able to put the pictures of both era. Keris with tangguh PB X, has really different style with keris with tangguh HB VII. You may see, that kerises with tangguh HB VII was continuing the old style of the older Mataram – say it continuing some older forms from three styles of “older” Mataram: Mataram Senopaten, Sultan Agungan, or even Amangkuratan… (Mr Boedhy Adithya knows better than me on this popular style of Jogja keris). While kerises with tangguh PB X, are really "new" solonese type. The specific form of ganja, for instance, you may be able to recognize quite easily, that the style is real solonese type. Not older Mataram, nor Majapahit.

I hope, this simple explanation answers the question from Alan, for the time being…

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Dear Raden Usman,

Speaking about Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII, I'd like to hear the story about "Pendito Ratu" (Priest King?), and "lengser keprabon" (step down from the throne, before the king passed away) which was done by HB VII. After lengser keprabon, HB VII then stayed outside Kraton Jogjakarta. (Jogja then reigned by his son, HB VIII). The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Alan, Raden Usman........
Someday, I hope to write more details on the comparison of the style of kerises from these two richest kings of Jogja and Solo. And better too, if I will be able to put the pictures of both era.........
Ganjawulung

dear Ganja and kerislovers,

I am really eager to watch images of keris and tombak (spearhead) that are believed as PB X period (tangguh). Even I am eager to hold and to have it someday. Till now, I dont have any kerises and spearheads of PB X period.

So, it is highly appreciated if you may upload and share the images of kerises and tombaks of PB X period. Thnak you very much in advanced.

warm salam,

Usmen

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Just one very minor thing needs to be made clear from Raden's post:- when a keris blade is subjected to normal maintenance procedures involving cleaning up an edge, or tidying up a ganja or kembang kacang, this is done cold, and it is only done after asking permission of the maker of the blade and any presence which may be inside the blade. We do not just pick the blade up, throw it into a fire, and take to it with hammer, tongs and electric grinder.Correctly carried out it is an almost religious ceremony.

dear,

Alan, I also heared that before cleaning and edging (and mbesut-ing/reshaping) there are sop (standard of procedure) or laku (english ?) including "nayuh". The result of this laku will used as a based whether the working should continue or not.

According to the legend of pasopati of mpu Ramadi, I would like to reveal some information based on Wayang. The name of Kiai Pasopati, Kiai Limpung, Kiai Nenggolo have been known in Wayang. If wayang were a legend (beleved as history not story). it should be long long before Christ even much long before Abraham the great grandpa of Christ.

Seemingly, the legend has been developing.
As Alan does beleived of the legend of King Arthur, I do believe of the legend of Mpu Ramadi just because I lived in the foot mountain Merapi mountain. It you visit Mountain Merapi, you will get more story about him. In some places, in hills and creeks, people believed some prominent spirits owned by Mpu ramadi living there till now, such as Ki Surenglogo et cetera et cetera et cetera

BUT, if someone states that what kind of keris pasopati created by Mpu Ramadi is similiar with Dhapur Pasopati what we know today, my stand is the same as Gonjowulung: DOUBTING with BIG QUESTION MARK.

In my opinion, Pasopati of Mpu Ramadi does not refer to the shape. However, it refers to the power of Mpu Ramadi's Pasaopati. The power of Mpu Ramadi's Pasopati was drawn as powerful as the (h)Arjuna's [?] Pasopati in Wayang. About the shape of that keris, none knows, because after spending much attention on the legend of its power, people neglected to specify the shape of the pusaka

If we read the ancient Jawa history, Mpu Ramadi was founder one of two prominent dynasties in Jawa. He lived in foot mountain of Merapi long before Pralaya (Merapi eruption dated so and so). At that time, area surrouding Merapi mountain in center of civilization in Jawa. Now, we can see on of its artifac: Borobudur & Prambanan temple. Actually, Borobudur temple was just medium size temple. There was bigger one but defastating by Pralaya. If I am not mistaken. Perhaps, what I said has big inaccuration. It is better someone here in this forum checks in library and corects what mistakes I did about Mpu Ramadi based on (accepted) History books. So, everyone will get truer information. Then we will be enlighted together. Sil vous plait?

merci beaucoup,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Usmen, if you believe the legends surrounding Empu Ramadi, as I believe the legends surrounding Arthur, then your belief is as mine:- rather fragile.

I am of the opinion that serious researchers into legend are in more or less general agreement that many, if not most legends have a basis in fact, but that basis may be very, very different from the legend as it stands at this point in time.

As I have already stated:- we should not confuse legend with fact.

All of these beliefs and legends are interesting, and provide useful background which will allow people to come to an understanding of the way in which many people in Jawa regard and feel about the keris. The legends are of anthropological value, but they are not of historic value, and bearing in mind that history itself is very often open to question, they can most certainly never be accepted as factual.

Let us be aware of the legends, but let us not confuse the legends with facts, nor with hypotheses which can be supported with logic or with evidence.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pak Usmen, if you believe the legends surrounding Empu Ramadi, as I believe the legends surrounding Arthur, then your belief is as mine:- rather fragile.

I am of the opinion that serious researchers into legend are in more or less general agreement that many, if not most legends have a basis in fact, but that basis may be very, very different from the legend as it stands at this point in time.

As I have already stated:- we should not confuse legend with fact.

All of these beliefs and legends are interesting, and provide useful background which will allow people to come to an understanding of the way in which many people in Jawa regard and feel about the keris. The legends are of anthropological value, but they are not of historic value, and bearing in mind that history itself is very often open to question, they can most certainly never be accepted as factual.

Let us be aware of the legends, but let us not confuse the legends with facts, nor with hypotheses which can be supported with logic or with evidence.

dear,

Absoltely, I agree with you.

Anyway, sometimes, even if we are a member of logic society, we should enjoy legends as they are. One of its benefit, it could make us feeling stonger.

Yeah, frankly speaking, some stories were told in holly books, they seem legends rather than facts. But as we tried to be a devoted lamb, we totally believe in. Moreover, factually, it makes us stronger to face with the fragile realm of the world. Human needs fantacy.

warm regards,

Usmen