Could this be Indonesian ? or Dutch?

[katana]

Hi,
picked this up on ePay. It may .....or may not have pamor, blade could even be a spearhead 8" long....13" OAL No scabbard to help ID either......any ideas please

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...B:EOIBSA:UK:11

David

[Emanuel]

Hi David,
This does look like a spearhead...an Indonesian tumbak perhaps...the lines remind me of some Moro budiak...

Cheers,
Emanuel

[Battara]

Not Moro....Not too sure it is Indonesian.....

[Marcokeris]

Not indonesian

[katana]

Thank you Battara and Marcokeris for your comments, could this dagger still be from the SEA region..... perhaps it would be better to add more pictures/details when the dagger is delivered .

[katana]

The dagger has arrived, no markings, flattened diamond in cross section. Double edged and still sharp. 'Hot pin' test of the handle revealed it is definately of animal origin.....but what animal Two indentations 180 degrees apart, on the 'shoulder' section as the blade meets hilt seem 'unusual' ...I've no idea why they are there

Without doubt this is a stabbing weapon, the blade is approx. 7mm thick (central ridge) and seems very 'robust' Patina suggests mid 19th C to early 20 th.

.... any suggestions to origin and use would be greatly appreciated...

Regards David

[RSWORD]

This might be some type of frontiersman knife. There are folks knowledgeable in staghorn identification and could point to Europe/America or Asia as probable origin. The blade part might be a recycled pike blade.

[tom hyle]

IT appears to be an oceanic SE Asian spear blade mounted as a dagger. The handle looks European, but it's awful generic. Why are we ruling out budiak, and mata tombak? Does this resemble the square-bolstered mystery spears we've discussed before, which seem to perhaps be Visayan?

[Battara]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

IT appears to be an oceanic SE Asian spear blade mounted as a dagger. The handle looks European, but it's awful generic. Why are we ruling out budiak, and mata tombak? Does this resemble the square-bolstered mystery spears we've discussed before, which seem to perhaps be Visayan?

The reason I rule out Budiak is that it does not fit the Budiak profile. I am even hesitant to label it tombak as well - again profile and characteristics. I like Rsword's pike idea. This fits that profile and the stag horn was common, especially in Scotland and USA for handles.

[Tim Simmons]

It could be part of a carving set. The skewer?

[Henk]

It is not a tombak. And it is certainly not dutch.

A frontiersknife or something like that as Rsword mentioned is the best option for now.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

It could be part of a carving set. The skewer?

....a carving set consists of a knife ....and a fork and , although this knife is sharp its medial ridge is too thick and the blade profile totally unsuitable for carving.
A skewer is almost always a pointed even shaft which does not flare out...it is designed to 'pin together' objects.

I still think that this is a re-hilted spearhead (lance tip / pike tip ...thanks for the ....tip RS Sword ) I thought it may be SEA ...but the staghorn hilt design seemed European. There is no doubt in my mind that this was designed as a stabbing weapon. The handle is incredibly ergonomic(underhand and overhand grips) when used in a stabbing motion. It also has excellent balance the POB is where the blade meets hilt....good for a 'fighting knife'.

[PUFF]

If the piece was SEA.. it was a lance's butt, not a head. Some Siamese 's lance have pointy butt pieces like your blade.

And this 's Siamese spear/lance (exept the 3rd piece)

[katana]

Thank you Puff something I had not considered

Going back to the balance of the dagger (photo below), as the antler has much less density than steel I can only assume that the 'tang' is quite 'large' and bulky to give the hilt enough weight to give this 'balance'. this suggests to me that the 'tang' is likely to be the remains of the steel shaft of a spearhead/butt bearing in mind there is no weighted pommel to cause this.


I have found this on Therion Arms. The profile and size of the 'blade' is very similar (although this has pamor)

http://therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c419.html


.......

[tom hyle]

Can we have any sort of reasons why this is simply not a tombak? I'm not getting it. It very closely resembles tombak blades I've seen, without the drawn-on bolster (metuk?)
The thing that lookes European to me is the way the handle tapers smoothly right into the bolster.
No real thoughts on the two mars on the bolster, other than they look more to me like something partially forged out than later vice damage, etc?
Wow, Puff; Now I guess maybe my big spear is Siamese, after all........Jimpul, if you're here; take note
Likewise, budiak can be a tightly construed term. For instance, I am told if hte blade does not have a "panel" seperated by grooves etc. it is not technically a budiak. Budiak as such aside, do we have reason to think this cannot be a S. PI spear point?
Sounds like it might have a thick tang; possibly only the base of a long one that tapered.
The long-tanged spear is AFAIKnew a uniquely Oceanic E Asian technology? Now I must consided my Thai spear. Joy

[David]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Can we have any sort of reasons why this is simply not a tombak? I'm not getting it. It very closely resembles tombak blades I've seen, without the drawn-on bolster (metuk?)

Tom, i think you answered your own question here. No metuk, not a tombak.

[tom hyle]

No, and for at least two reasons, each equally valid.
A/ if it is not a tombak per se with no metuk that goes a long way from saying there are not such spears, perhaps by a different name, in Indonesia, and {([I think this was B;.......])} in fact I have seen such blades, which had either lost, or never had a drawn on bolster (likewis for kris, BTW); so, as with what I'd already said about budiak, defining the term in a tightly constrained manner may be unhelpful in this particular discussion.
B? Snap, I forgot B, and your post isn';t showing in the bit I can read below. Maybe I somehow included B in A; I don't know; lost track of the thought.....

Additional: I have a reason it is not a budiak (broadly construed, etc.). Budiaks AFAIK have rhomboid (ie. diamond) cross section. This blade is midribbed, at least a the base, with a wide, semicircular rib, like a tombak.
It appears to be a tombak, mounted as a dagger. They often are.
Just for reference, the Thai(?) spear I mentioned is one of the leaf-bladed ones; one inch thick at the blade base, and with a 14" tang love, spear, love

[David]

Tom, i didn't say it wasn't from Indonesia, just that it isn't a tombak. I never said that there aren't such spears there by a different name.
If you have a photo of a tombak without a metuk i would love to see it. I am always open to having my mind changed.

[katana]

Thank you Tom and David for the further posts

personally I am convinced that this is a re-mounted spear head and almost certainly of SEA origins, whether this was hilted (or even re-hilted) in Europe is another story. I have been unable to find a similar dagger described as European ....all the examples I have found (with very similar features to my own) have been attributed to SEA (some with pamor... most without)
The 'balance' and solid construction seems to suggest that this dagger was made with care for a purely functional use....to stab. I have considered this to be a 'hunting dirk' but it really does not fit the 'profile'.

I suppose, with weapons that are not readily easy to ID, you have to weigh up the comments of others, your own knowledge and the 'feel' of the weapon in question.....until proved otherwise.

[kronckew]

are we letting our own hopes and experiences keep us from thinking outside our 'box'?





some pretty letter openers out there. saw a nice victorian one with a stag grip on ebay recently

[katana]

I take your point kronckew...we should all think 'out of the box'......but this is no paper knife....mid rib is 7mm distally tapered to 3mm just before the tip. It's too heavy duty both in weight and construction at approx. 34cms long (9cms (3 3/4") longer than the longest length stated in the posted examples) it would be 'cumbersome' and the blade perhaps a little thick for effective 'envelope opening'.

I take your point about the overall shape of the paper knife blades...but the design (being symmetrical) allows use by either right or left 'handers'. The blade on mine has a very heavy 'tang', as mentioned before, as the balance point is where blade meets handle. A paper knife likely would have a 'weedy' rat tail or half tang fixed by adhesive 'resin'.

As usual (with knives I am not certain about) I 'tested' this dagger on various thicknesses of ply wood to assertain strengh and 'penetration'. This easily holes 3/8" ply and the point is visible on 1/2" with no damage to the knife at all. I am certain that a paper knife would not perform as well. Spark testing the blade shows high carbon content and is not 'stainless steel' which the majority of paper knives would be (to prevent rust marks on your letters, and no oil marks either from a knife with a properly maintained carbon blade)


Any way I've already got a paper knife in my collection


Regards David

[tom hyle]

Nice; is that what it's for? Can we see a fuller pic?
I, BTW, am incapable of posting pics; no idea how it's done, I'm affraid.

[kronckew]

hi katana,

it does sound a bit thick for a letter opener, the short shafted pilum that was subject to an earlier dissertation looks like it can take care of your correspondence instead while we ponder the source of your latest weapon.

the two opposing flats on the integral bolster look interesting, could it be for a wrench or tongs to hold it while inserting it in the grip? hard to tell from a small photo. maybe an x-ray of the tang thru the grip by a co-operative dentist, vet or hospital will shed some light. not loose is it? any indication of how it's stuck on, screwed in, cutlers cement, laha or just fibre wrapped & pushed in like a tombak or keris?

[katana]

Hi Kronkew,
there is a small chip out of the handle next to where the metalwork finishes....which reveals a very small gap, inserting a piece of wire I have found that there is a 2mm depth before it hits the 'tang'. The 'chamfered bolster' is 17 mm diameter which suggests that the tang is 13mm (ie 17mm-2mm -2mm) in diameter (assuming it is round). The hilt is solid with no signs of adhesive, pins etc ....so I have no idea how its fixed The 'flats' are small depressions....perhaps the tang area was heated , held with tongs and 'burned' into the antler

Some school boy calculations seem to suggest that the 'tang' is 7.5 -8.5 cms. The dagger weighs 200 g, as the balance point is at the end of the handle, the hilt end weighs approx 100g, steel is 7.7g per 1cm cubed, assuming the 'tang' is round and 13mm along its length it weighs approx. 70-80g (I think around 20g-30g for the antler... its approx. 1g per 1cm cubed (lets say 100 -20 =80) 77 g would mean 10cm cubed of steel ....which equates to 7.57cm of 13mm diameter 'rod'. There is a fair bit of speculation ..there are alot of 'approximates' ..the tang may even taper, meaning that the tang is even longer.



Hi Tom,
the 'paper knife' is in fact an asparagus knife, which Kronckew correctly ID'ed for me (originally it was 'handle less') Its actually an interesting 'mistake' and seems to be very collectable.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5014

[kronckew]

i've found that, barring any distracting ferrous impediments, running a small strong magnet down the grip from the bolster towards the pommel can give you an indication of where a partial tang ends. i sometimes suspend the magnet from a string just above it and move the grip under it, you can detect when the magnetic field 'grabs' and lets go near the tang end. i use a fridge magneted teaspoon it's got one heck of a strong magnet in a teeny round disk and a hole in the handle.... if the wood or stag is thin enough the magnet may even stick thru it and suspend itself until you slide it past the hidden tang... not very good for finding anything but how long the tang is, but that in itself is a usefull tidbit.

it may be a press fit, or their may be some cement further up the grip cavity holding it in. unless it loosens on its own, it would probably be destructive to mess with it physically, thermally or mechanically. an xray might be informative. might not too. probably not worth the expense....

[katana]

Hi Kronckew,
I did try previously to use a magnet....but it is very weak. Antler, I believe is an insulator and would therefor 'weaken' the attraction. Your idea of suspending the magnet is an excellent one ....I will give it a go.

Unfortunately all this detective work has only shown that this is a functional dagger. I think the origins will remain unsolved...never mind...I've grown quite attached to it

[katana]

Using a stronger magnet it seems that the 'tang' is 6.5 cm -7 cms ....not far off my 'guess-timate' So it appears that the tang is solid steel, around 13mm in diameter and approx. 6.5-7 cms long.

Not a usual 'tang' at all.....it MUST be a spearhead, remounted as a dagger.