"Yataghans": Louvre or fake?

ariel · 24th August 2007, 12:15 PM

Here are 2 swords from different dealers: one Scythian, another Iberian. Very similar size, blade form, handles and workmanship and the amount of red rust on the blade
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=017
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=006
I guess, Celtic provenance is more valuable than Scythian

ALEX · 24th August 2007, 02:46 PM

If it is anywhere from BC , should the blade be at least heavily dark patinated, prefferably with multiple layers of patina, etc????? Red rust with patches of white metal indicate artificial origin to me. As for green-patinated hilt: it is much easier to fake old patina on bronze than on steel

Tim Simmons · 24th August 2007, 08:07 PM

Nonsense.

katana · 24th August 2007, 08:11 PM

Looking at an enhanced picture of the blades, they show deep pitting, the lighter areas are not clean metal...perhaps a build up of chemical salts from soil. Looks as if these were 'dug up' ........probably months after they were deliberately buried

I am also assuming that 'pre-burial' the blades were chemically 'attacked' to jump start the aging process.

Who said 'gardening' was a waste of time.....I'm off to 'plant' a few swords...now, where's my spade

ariel · 24th August 2007, 09:13 PM

Well, boys, this ain't no Louvre, that much we know

Now, my next question: the blades look like yataghans, but with a "bolster"-like part being organic part of the blade rather than the handle.
Have you ever encountered similar blade construction?
Do you think these blades were created specifically fot these swords( probably during the infamous Scytho-Iberian War

) or did they use truly antique Yataghan blades?
My last question: personally, I think that these swords were made by native Celtic tribes of Guanzhow Province. Any other ideas?

Tim Simmons · 24th August 2007, 09:35 PM

I do not know where these come from but as sure as the sky is blue they are not ancient. Besides the fact that ancient artifacts like this would not be allowed to be excavated and exported, the modelling is rough and poor in my eye. It is rubbish and nothing to take seriously.

Battara · 24th August 2007, 10:23 PM

Not only do I agree with what has been said here, but the forms are not Sythian or Celtic on the hilts. Add to that the "iron" blades would look different than they do in these pictures.

As Tim verbosly said, "Nonsense"

Emanuel · 24th August 2007, 11:29 PM

Could these be modified and artificially aged karakulaks? They feature integral bolster construction and similar blades. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4825
There's plenty of ancient/mediaeval/whatever stuff buried and excavated in the Balkans. ebay has a wide variety of such knives sold from Bulgaria among other places.

TVV · 25th August 2007, 12:37 AM

I think Manolo nailed it. The integral bolster is a typical feature of karakulaks, and these are still relatively cheap and abundant. How difficult would it be to take one such knife in poor shape and "machaira"-nize it? Not too difficult, I think - just cast a hilt in some fancy shape, such as an eagle head, age artificially and you are ready to go and take some fool's money on eBay.

24th August 2007, 12:15 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"Yataghans": Louvre or fake? Here are 2 swords from different dealers: one Scythian, another Iberian. Very similar size, blade form, handles and workmanship and the amount of red rust on the blade http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=017 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=006 I guess, Celtic provenance is more valuable than Scythian

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24th August 2007, 02:46 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	If it is anywhere from BC , should the blade be at least heavily dark patinated, prefferably with multiple layers of patina, etc????? Red rust with patches of white metal indicate artificial origin to me. As for green-patinated hilt: it is much easier to fake old patina on bronze than on steel

24th August 2007, 08:07 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Nonsense.

24th August 2007, 08:11 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Looking at an enhanced picture of the blades, they show deep pitting, the lighter areas are not clean metal...perhaps a build up of chemical salts from soil. Looks as if these were 'dug up' ........probably months after they were deliberately buried I am also assuming that 'pre-burial' the blades were chemically 'attacked' to jump start the aging process. Who said 'gardening' was a waste of time.....I'm off to 'plant' a few swords...now, where's my spade

24th August 2007, 09:13 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, boys, this ain't no Louvre, that much we know Now, my next question: the blades look like yataghans, but with a "bolster"-like part being organic part of the blade rather than the handle. Have you ever encountered similar blade construction? Do you think these blades were created specifically fot these swords( probably during the infamous Scytho-Iberian War ) or did they use truly antique Yataghan blades? My last question: personally, I think that these swords were made by native Celtic tribes of Guanzhow Province. Any other ideas?

24th August 2007, 09:35 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I do not know where these come from but as sure as the sky is blue they are not ancient. Besides the fact that ancient artifacts like this would not be allowed to be excavated and exported, the modelling is rough and poor in my eye. It is rubbish and nothing to take seriously.

24th August 2007, 10:23 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Not only do I agree with what has been said here, but the forms are not Sythian or Celtic on the hilts. Add to that the "iron" blades would look different than they do in these pictures. As Tim verbosly said, "Nonsense"

24th August 2007, 11:29 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Could these be modified and artificially aged karakulaks? They feature integral bolster construction and similar blades. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4825 There's plenty of ancient/mediaeval/whatever stuff buried and excavated in the Balkans. ebay has a wide variety of such knives sold from Bulgaria among other places.

25th August 2007, 12:37 AM	#9
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	I think Manolo nailed it. The integral bolster is a typical feature of karakulaks, and these are still relatively cheap and abundant. How difficult would it be to take one such knife in poor shape and "machaira"-nize it? Not too difficult, I think - just cast a hilt in some fancy shape, such as an eagle head, age artificially and you are ready to go and take some fool's money on eBay.