Origins of Shepherds' Knives and Karakulaks

ariel · 3rd August 2007, 02:28 AM

I second the motion!
We had a discussion once when the idea of the Eastward migration of the Makhaira with Alexander was followed 2 milennia later by it's Westward return as a Yataghan. In between, it allegedly created Nepalese Kukri and a host of other recurved weapons.
Well, if one looks at Gorelik's works, there were recurved knives ( short) all over: from Greece to Caucasus, the steppes and all the way to China. Longer blades, used as weapons, of that configuration were indeed seen in Greek and Scythian cultures but not in Anatolia, Syro-Palestinian enclaves or Mesopotamia. However, one can easily imagine that Turkic tribes just lenghtened the indigenous recurved knife into a longer blade: the Yataghan. Indeed, Yataghan was never a real "sword" : it was Yataghan Bicagi, ie Yataghan knife or dagger. So far so good.
However, Gorelik did not touch on Indian weapons, and recurved, Yataghan-ish, swords were quite widespread there. One does not need to invoke Macedonian transplants in the genesis of Kukris and Sossun Patas : they might ( likely, must) have been brought up North by the Southern Indian expansion. Although, Greek influence did affect Central Asian art: witness Persian and Afghani statues.
And, of course, where are the Yataghans dating back before Ahmet Tekelu's masterpiece? How on Earth did he come with the idea? Ah, he was the Teke, from what is now Turkmenistan? Back to the Central Asian hypothesis...

A horrendously confusing subject

Yannis · 3rd August 2007, 07:49 AM

The travel of yataghan to the east and back to Balkans is the most prominent hypothesis.

Hundreds of years after Alexander there was an Indo-Greek Kingdom in northwest and northern Indian subcontinent with Greek rulers and official language. I suppose that is an explanation about Kukris and Sossun Patas also.

I agree that we dont talk politics on this forum but this rule must be respected from all. So please do not provoke

I didnt wrote about nations, that more or less they are a "salade macedoine" in all area. I just criticized a theory that claims the impossible as TVV noticed, too, from his part of view.

erlikhan · 3rd August 2007, 04:34 PM

Yes you guys, I recommend you all once again, please don't provoke each other ,you must stay in the lines of edged weapons world.

Ariel, I think that "Teke" is not the one in Turkmenistan, but much closer, southern Anatolia, Antalya and its environment. That region was named "Teke sancagi" (Teke province) in Ottoman period.

ariel · 4th August 2007, 02:50 AM

Teke is one of the biggest and certainly the most influential tribes in Turkmenistan. Tekes were a part of the Kyzylbashi confederation and that's how their name entered Turkish administrative divisions.
Just as a quick reminder
http://www.chrono-tm.org/?0257042827...00000011000000
They are famous for their horses, the Akhal Teke breed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhal-Teke

erlikhan · 4th August 2007, 07:21 AM

That's correct.And most probably he was from Teke tribe although it doesnt prove a direct relation between yataghans and central asia. A lot of geographical names in Ottoman period were Turkmen tribal ones, named after tribe which had dominated there during the migrations between
1071-1200s. "Tekelu" shows his place of birth or his tribal identity to seperate him from other Ahmeds in a time when there was no systematical last name tradition. Note:South Anatolia Tekes were mainly living as nomads- 'Yoruk's 1530.

ariel · 4th August 2007, 12:21 PM

Man, if only we could prove anything in this business

Of course, my comment about his Central Asian roots and the origins of Yataghan was meant as a joke

erlikhan · 9th August 2007, 10:48 PM

Good.Then, it is my duty to supply you another potential clue in your efforts to track the origins of yataghans for all of us. Teke means "goat".

4th August 2007, 07:21 AM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	That's correct.And most probably he was from Teke tribe although it doesnt prove a direct relation between yataghans and central asia. A lot of geographical names in Ottoman period were Turkmen tribal ones, named after tribe which had dominated there during the migrations between 1071-1200s. "Tekelu" shows his place of birth or his tribal identity to seperate him from other Ahmeds in a time when there was no systematical last name tradition. Note:South Anatolia Tekes were mainly living as nomads- 'Yoruk's 1530. Last edited by erlikhan; 4th August 2007 at 08:18 AM.

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3rd August 2007, 02:28 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I second the motion! We had a discussion once when the idea of the Eastward migration of the Makhaira with Alexander was followed 2 milennia later by it's Westward return as a Yataghan. In between, it allegedly created Nepalese Kukri and a host of other recurved weapons. Well, if one looks at Gorelik's works, there were recurved knives ( short) all over: from Greece to Caucasus, the steppes and all the way to China. Longer blades, used as weapons, of that configuration were indeed seen in Greek and Scythian cultures but not in Anatolia, Syro-Palestinian enclaves or Mesopotamia. However, one can easily imagine that Turkic tribes just lenghtened the indigenous recurved knife into a longer blade: the Yataghan. Indeed, Yataghan was never a real "sword" : it was Yataghan Bicagi, ie Yataghan knife or dagger. So far so good. However, Gorelik did not touch on Indian weapons, and recurved, Yataghan-ish, swords were quite widespread there. One does not need to invoke Macedonian transplants in the genesis of Kukris and Sossun Patas : they might ( likely, must) have been brought up North by the Southern Indian expansion. Although, Greek influence did affect Central Asian art: witness Persian and Afghani statues. And, of course, where are the Yataghans dating back before Ahmet Tekelu's masterpiece? How on Earth did he come with the idea? Ah, he was the Teke, from what is now Turkmenistan? Back to the Central Asian hypothesis... A horrendously confusing subject

3rd August 2007, 07:49 AM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	The travel of yataghan to the east and back to Balkans is the most prominent hypothesis. Hundreds of years after Alexander there was an Indo-Greek Kingdom in northwest and northern Indian subcontinent with Greek rulers and official language. I suppose that is an explanation about Kukris and Sossun Patas also. I agree that we dont talk politics on this forum but this rule must be respected from all. So please do not provoke I didnt wrote about nations, that more or less they are a "salade macedoine" in all area. I just criticized a theory that claims the impossible as TVV noticed, too, from his part of view.

3rd August 2007, 04:34 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Yes you guys, I recommend you all once again, please don't provoke each other ,you must stay in the lines of edged weapons world. Ariel, I think that "Teke" is not the one in Turkmenistan, but much closer, southern Anatolia, Antalya and its environment. That region was named "Teke sancagi" (Teke province) in Ottoman period.

4th August 2007, 02:50 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teke is one of the biggest and certainly the most influential tribes in Turkmenistan. Tekes were a part of the Kyzylbashi confederation and that's how their name entered Turkish administrative divisions. Just as a quick reminder http://www.chrono-tm.org/?0257042827...00000011000000 They are famous for their horses, the Akhal Teke breed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhal-Teke

4th August 2007, 12:21 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Man, if only we could prove anything in this business Of course, my comment about his Central Asian roots and the origins of Yataghan was meant as a joke

9th August 2007, 10:48 PM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Good.Then, it is my duty to supply you another potential clue in your efforts to track the origins of yataghans for all of us. Teke means "goat".