Karabela... but is it genuine Polish?

RSWORD · 24th July 2007, 01:05 PM

I remember this sword at the Baltimore show earlier this year and had a chance to handle it. The blade is Indian and is an old blade. By old, I mean 18th or 19th century. You can see the armoury markings on the spine. Notice also the typical Indian ricasso at the forte. You have the interesting "channeled" spine which is not common but is found on some Indian, Chinese and E European blades. The blade has genuine wear throughout. The hilt, however, is another matter. As you can see from one of the pictures, the vertical guard still has a lot of tooling marks. They look a bit clumsy to me and somewhat crude. The leather is fairly nicely done but does not show a lot of genuine age. So, a composite piece of antique blade with newer handle of unknown age but almost certainly 20th century.

ariel · 24th July 2007, 03:01 PM

In my original posting I purposefully tried to sound neutral.
I am sure it is a hybrid sword, with old Indian blade and new "Polish-Hungarian"- type handle and crossguard.

Jamaz · 26th July 2007, 03:24 PM

It's fake in my opinion. Agree with Wolview. The leather too new, crossguard as well, no rivets, etc. Even shape of this sabre does not convince me.

rand · 28th July 2007, 04:02 PM

Great post Wolviex,

Was great to see a close up on your Polish sword. Some polish items are so rare even the Metropolitan Museum of Art does not have one, a winged hussar armor for example.

Copies are so rampant now, very few dealers are ever prosectited for fraud, although there are a few in jail. Never sell a fake to the Vice Presidents physician.....

I feel sorry for the people that spend there hard earned monay and then find out they have lost everything, especially when they but from a dealer. A proffessional is held to a much higher standard of knowledge.

Don't know of one auction house that is totally reputable, this includes, Sotheby's, Christies, Czerneys, Herman Historica and Butterfields. I can tell you stories about all these auction houses. There are also some very good dealers that really help new collectors and offer profound detailed information. Then there are some dealers that prey on novices......

Everyone makes mistakes, I operate on the assumption that if I don't make any mistakes I am not buying enough pieces.... If its too good of a deal, soemthing may be wrong.

One good Polish sword would look really nice on the wall next to my desk...

rand

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2007, 04:47 PM

I completely agree with Rand and his extremely well worded assessment, in acquiring weapons one will make mistakes, and will gain knowledge in sometimes painful degree. While this knowledge is of course useful, it is better to learn as much as possible 'before' buying weapons and the degree of injury will be less. Hopefully the information shared on the forum here has helped others as I know it has helped me.
The next key is to find a dealer you trust and try to focus on dealing with them whenever possible. Obviously deals 'too good to be true' have increased in volume with the advent of computers and ebay et al. The sheepish ploy of many the coy seller who 'inherited this' , found it in an estate sale but doesn't know what it is etc etc.has all been tiresomely played out, and it is difficult to determine with unknowns when this might surprisingly be the case.
In those cases, research before bidding, contact dealers or professionals you trust.
Everybody makes mistakes, and the big boy auction houses are not immune. however with the knowledge base that seems certain with thier staff it would seem surprising that inaccuracy would occur. Naturally, money prevails and is known to turn heads away from such matters. In these busy times it has become to easy to blame volume, shortage of personnel and all manner of excuses for such things, and if the error is to advantage, well

As for the mounting of very old Indian tulwar blades in recent karabela mounts, the practice seems to have been around for a while, and I always wondered what became of the original hilts or if these were simply trade blades never used. In the instance I have seen the blade was indeed very old, probably latter 17th century.

All best regards,
Jim

28th July 2007, 04:02 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Wolviex-Great Posting Great post Wolviex, Was great to see a close up on your Polish sword. Some polish items are so rare even the Metropolitan Museum of Art does not have one, a winged hussar armor for example. Copies are so rampant now, very few dealers are ever prosectited for fraud, although there are a few in jail. Never sell a fake to the Vice Presidents physician..... I feel sorry for the people that spend there hard earned monay and then find out they have lost everything, especially when they but from a dealer. A proffessional is held to a much higher standard of knowledge. Don't know of one auction house that is totally reputable, this includes, Sotheby's, Christies, Czerneys, Herman Historica and Butterfields. I can tell you stories about all these auction houses. There are also some very good dealers that really help new collectors and offer profound detailed information. Then there are some dealers that prey on novices...... Everyone makes mistakes, I operate on the assumption that if I don't make any mistakes I am not buying enough pieces.... If its too good of a deal, soemthing may be wrong. One good Polish sword would look really nice on the wall next to my desk... rand

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24th July 2007, 01:05 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,089	I remember this sword at the Baltimore show earlier this year and had a chance to handle it. The blade is Indian and is an old blade. By old, I mean 18th or 19th century. You can see the armoury markings on the spine. Notice also the typical Indian ricasso at the forte. You have the interesting "channeled" spine which is not common but is found on some Indian, Chinese and E European blades. The blade has genuine wear throughout. The hilt, however, is another matter. As you can see from one of the pictures, the vertical guard still has a lot of tooling marks. They look a bit clumsy to me and somewhat crude. The leather is fairly nicely done but does not show a lot of genuine age. So, a composite piece of antique blade with newer handle of unknown age but almost certainly 20th century.

24th July 2007, 03:01 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In my original posting I purposefully tried to sound neutral. I am sure it is a hybrid sword, with old Indian blade and new "Polish-Hungarian"- type handle and crossguard.

26th July 2007, 03:24 PM	#3
Jamaz Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lower Silesia, Poland Posts: 9	It's fake in my opinion. Agree with Wolview. The leather too new, crossguard as well, no rivets, etc. Even shape of this sabre does not convince me.

28th July 2007, 04:47 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,597	I completely agree with Rand and his extremely well worded assessment, in acquiring weapons one will make mistakes, and will gain knowledge in sometimes painful degree. While this knowledge is of course useful, it is better to learn as much as possible 'before' buying weapons and the degree of injury will be less. Hopefully the information shared on the forum here has helped others as I know it has helped me. The next key is to find a dealer you trust and try to focus on dealing with them whenever possible. Obviously deals 'too good to be true' have increased in volume with the advent of computers and ebay et al. The sheepish ploy of many the coy seller who 'inherited this' , found it in an estate sale but doesn't know what it is etc etc.has all been tiresomely played out, and it is difficult to determine with unknowns when this might surprisingly be the case. In those cases, research before bidding, contact dealers or professionals you trust. Everybody makes mistakes, and the big boy auction houses are not immune. however with the knowledge base that seems certain with thier staff it would seem surprising that inaccuracy would occur. Naturally, money prevails and is known to turn heads away from such matters. In these busy times it has become to easy to blame volume, shortage of personnel and all manner of excuses for such things, and if the error is to advantage, well As for the mounting of very old Indian tulwar blades in recent karabela mounts, the practice seems to have been around for a while, and I always wondered what became of the original hilts or if these were simply trade blades never used. In the instance I have seen the blade was indeed very old, probably latter 17th century. All best regards, Jim