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21st July 2007, 08:54 PM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 199
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Quote:
I have a keris with "pamengkang jagad = the world stretcher [?]". Or if it is not a keris with the world stretcher, it is a keris with "rondo beser". David and Gonjo, please translate to foruminities a word "rondo beser". Personally, I prefer a word "rondo beser" because its dapur/shape is sombro (Sombro is a name of female empu/kerissmith). Here is the story of my Sombro with "rondo beser". Twice, I brought that keris to a monthly forum which attended by kerislovers in my hometown Djokja. What did some of them give comment on that keris? side effect of a flaw forging as Gonjo said in this forum. On the other ocassion, I showed it to kerislovers who did not now about forging technique. In their opinion, this sombro was a very good keris because of extraordinary unseen power. One of them offered me unbelievable dowry (price) for that keris. In short, the keris is still mine now. Seemingly, there is two different point of view on either "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser". One view tends to focus on forging technique whilst the other one tends to focus on the spiritual aspect. In my own opinion, these two different views can not compared each other because the difference comes since the beginning. I just remember a fiction film "lord of the ring". I don't remember in detail about the broken sword which finally reforging successfully by so and so. Does anyone of you have a keris with "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser"? Please share the pictures to our beloved kerislovers for enriching knowledge of keris by watching images. I am eager to share with you the pictures of my sombro with "the world stretcher or rondo beser=...." soon after I can afford a new digicam. Sigh... I lost my digicam last month. warm regards, Usmen |
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22nd July 2007, 12:54 AM
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#2 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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THE OLD TRADITIONS,KNOWLEGE ,BELIEFS AND MAGIC OF MY ANCESTORS IS NO LONGER PART OF OUR CULTURE AND HAS NOT BEEN FOR MANY GENERATIONS. THERE ARE STILL SOME THINGS THAT MOSTLY COME AS DREAMS, PREMONITIANS AND FEELINGS OF FEAR, WARMTH,POWER, ECT. BUT THEY ARE JUST SHADES, WHICH ARE OFTEN DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.
I CAN READ BOOKS ON ANOTHER CULTURE AND GET A GLIMPSE OF THE CULTURE AND PERHAPS A BIT OF KNOWLEGE BUT WITHOUT BEING RAISED IN OR AT LEAST LIVING IN THE CULTURE FOR MANY YEARS I CAN NEVER ACHIVE THE SAME BELIEF OR UNDERSTANDING AS THEY CAN. SO IT SHOULD COME AS NO SURPRIZE THAT MY INTREPRETATION OF THE SOCIETY AND ITS CEREMONYS AND BELIEFS WOULD BE DIFFERENT FROM THEIRS. THIS IS NOT NECESSARLY A BAD THING IF I AM WILLING TO BE CORRECTED AND THEY ARE WILLING TO PERHAPS SEE WHY I THINK AS I DO AND NOT BE OFFENDED BY IT AND SHUT ME OUT. ALL MODERN CULTURES HAVE LOST A LOT OF THESE OLD BELIEFS, CEREMONYS AND THE ABILITYS TO ACCESS THE POWERS AND KNOWLEGE OF ANCIENT TIMES SO IT BECOMES CONFUSING AND OFTEN THEORYS AND BELIEFS ARE BASED ON ONLY PART OF THE OLD KNOWLEGE SO IT IS NOT RIGHT OR COMPLETE. A LOT OF BELIEFS HAVE COME UP DUE TO OLD WRITEINGS OR STORIES WHICH WERE FICTION MADE UP TRYING TO PAINT A POSITIVE AND PRETTY PICTURE OF OUR OLD ANCESTORS AND THEIR WAYS WITH NO REAL KNOWLEGE AND SOMETIMES IGNORING THE FACTS. IN PRIMATIVE TIMES THE PRODUCTION OF WEAPONS INVOLVED A LOT OF MAGICAL CEREMONY AND TECKNIQUE AND RITCUALS WERE SECRET AND ONLY SHARED WITH THE PRIVILEGED FEW. THIS SECRECY ALSO GAVE THE (IRON WORKERS FOR INSTANCE) POWER AND PRESTIGE THEY WERE THOUGHT TO HAVE SPECIAL POWERS AND KNOWLEGE AND WERE BOTH SOUGHT AFTER AND FEARED. STORIES OF THESE SUPERNATURAL POWERS ABOUND PEOPLE WHO CAN FORM METAL WITH THEIR BARE HANDS EITHER COLD OR MOLTEN AND HAD THE POWER TO PUT SPIRITS AND STRANGE POWERS INTO THE MYSTICAL ,ELEMENTAL METAL. THE IDEA THAT SOMETHING FROM THE SUN OR NOT OF THIS EARTH OR EVEN LIGHTNING HAS ALWAYS BEEN SEEN TO ADD SOME SPECIAL POWERS TO AN OBJECT. IT GOES BACK TO OUR EARLY DAYS WHEN MAN DID NOT KNOW MUCH OF HIS WORLD AND HOW IT WORKED SO EVERYTHING WAS MYSTERIOUS AND MAGICAL. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE EVERYTHING WAS CREATED BY ONE POWERFUL CREATOR AND WE WILL FIND OUT MORE WHEN WE PASS FROM THIS LIFE. SCIENCE IS NOTHING EXALTED IT IS JUST MANS METHOD OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW THE CREATOR MADE THINGS AND HOW THEY WORK. I HAVE TO LAUGH AT A SCIENTIST WHO FIGURES OUT ONE SMALL THING AND THEN SAYS HE HAS PROVED THERE IS NO CREATOR. IT IS LIKE A YOUNG CHILD FINDING OUT HOW TO OPEN A DOOR AND THEN THINKING HE IS THE RULER OF THE WORLD.  WE HAVE ACESS TO ONLY OUR 5 SENSES WHICH I THINK DENIES US OUR FULL ABILITYS AND LIMITS WHAT WE CAN SEE OR LEARN. PERHAPS THIS IS FOR OUR OWN GOOD BUT AT TIMES I CAN SENSE THERE IS MORE HERE IN OUR WORLD THAN WE KNOW. THE SHAMEN OR MEDICINE MEN MAY HAVE HAD SOME WAYS TO EXPAND THEIR 5 SENSES OR TO PARTIALY USE SOME OTHERS WE DON'T KNOW OF TO HELP THEIR TRIBES. THE KERIS IS A BEAUTIFUL OBJECT FULL OF MYSTERY AS WELL AS A WEAPON. I LIKE TO MEDITATE AND EMPTY MY MIND AND FOLLOW THE PARMOR PATTERNS IN A BLADE. OFTEN I SEE THINGS I HAD NOT NOTICED AND A COUPLE OF TIMES I SAW THINGS THAT WHEN I LOOKED FOR AGAIN I COULD NEVER FIND. I FIND IT IS RELAXING AND IS A GREAT WAY TO GET TO KNOW A KERIS AND TO ENJOY IT MORE. I DO ATTEMPT TO FIND THAT "RIGHT MENTAL ATTITUDE" AT TIMES. I FIND A NICE QUIET PLACE ,THE BEST IS OUTSIDE. THEN I SIT AND TRY TO RELAX AND EMPTY MY MIND AND STRIP AWAY ALL THE MENTAL ARMOR AND TRIALS AND WORRIES OF LIFE AND TO GET TO THE STATE OF INNOCENCE IN WHICH WE WERE BORN. I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ACHIVE IT YET BUT PERHAPS I WILL GET THERE SOMEDAY WITH DICIPLINE AND AGE. 
Last edited by VANDOO; 22nd July 2007 at 04:40 PM. |
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25th July 2007, 08:25 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
I will try to find the exact meaning of "rondo beser". (For this time being, I'm still travelling between Yogya-Solo-Yogya to and fro. And I've met Marco -- our keris Italian friend -- in Yogyakarta. We stay in the same hotel in Tirtodipuran Yogyakarta but of course not the same room.) If I'm not mistaken, "rondo beser" is a bigger crack than "pamengkang jagat". And the literaly meaning of "rondo beser" is, "rondo" means "widow" and "beser" means "so often go to toilet". So, what is in a name? You may feel it. In my opinion, "rondo beser" has a little bit negative conotation. But "pamengkang jagat" has more positive meaning. So it depends on the person, from what side or perspective he see the phenomenon (the crack in the blade). This for the time being, my answer to you, Raden. After I come to Jakarta, I will search the more exact meaning of it. Anyway, I met your old friends in Yogyakarta, Raden. Your friend from Pametri Wiji Yogyakarta (the Yogyakarta Keris Association), are mentioning your name. Ganjawulung |
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25th July 2007, 02:01 PM
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#4 |
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Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,101
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Thank you Usmen. I think i am able to grasp the meaning of "sipat piandel" through your usage of the term. You pose a very interesting question, i believe, and my answer to it is that very simply we don't need any particular medium, be it keris, holy books or whatever, to connect ourselves to the "Singularity".
The direct line is always there and can always be accessed. But personally i sometimes like to travel along a more winding path to see what the "Singularity" may have manisfest there. There may also be other lessons to be learned on that less direct path and one can find a different beauty manifested there (such as in the form of the keris) that one would miss otherwise. I believe the key here is not to fall prey to the idea that one cannot do without the trappings of one's Art in order to accomplish the "Great Work" that lies before us. When we do such things become merely a crutch that in the end has an opposite effect of weighing us down in our materialism when we really want to "fly". But if we understand the true nature of our tools and always keep in mind that ultimately they are unnecessary they can infact make the journey more "colorful".  
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27th July 2007, 05:58 PM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: East Java
Posts: 137
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comment from friend
Dear all,
Especially to Moderator. Peace... I don't know, do I will breaking the rule if I post the comment from friend who got trouble with her account at this forum. But he asked me to post her comment in here. Here her comment : Dear all, I didn’t expect my comment will be the cause for me being suspended as this is an adult forum. So do expect the unexpected. I heard this comment made in 1994 and now the impact still register in my mind. Anyway, I hope it will create a powerful impact on us of the danger in assuming things. I will cease penning my writes from now on to bow low and step back. My being suspended is a sign from Almighty Allah to stop sharing my thoughts and findings. I will share an email (Keris & Spirits) quoted from someone whom I hold very high respect and look upon for his many years of wisdom. He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.” One last request from me to keris experts: to provide correct info and not mislead others. If you’re reluctant then just “shut your mouth” and keep mum. As for the others be initiative; do research and compare findings. Apologized if I happen to step on anybody’s toes for I’m a very forthright person with no hidden façade or agenda. Sincerely, Hana P.S – Nice knowing you guys at Warung Kopi. Do take care!! |
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28th July 2007, 01:01 AM
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#6 |
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Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,287
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It Is Unfortunate
This forum is a part of the Vikingsword site; that means the guidelines and rules listed in the Main forum must also be followed .
I did not enjoy doing what I did but for consistency's sake I was compelled to . Hana is welcome back after her suspension ends . From the overall rules of behavior for *all* fora here: " You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy." Let's move on ... Rick |
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28th July 2007, 01:26 AM
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#7 | |
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Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,101
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Quote:
I would like to comment on the above passage from Hana's letter though. Truer words have rarely been stated in regards to the keris world. The arena is rife with pretenders. I will say, however, that i can think of no one here who has promoted themselves as an "expert" in this field and always feel a bit uncomfortable when someone addresses an inquirery "dear keris experts". The only person on this forum who i believe even remotely meets the profile of a "keris expert" would certainly never call himself one and is well aware of the limitations of his expertise to very specific areas of keris study. So i do ask you all that we procede with this attitude in mind; that we are all merely students of the keris, that there is so much more for any of us to know, that we will probably spend the rest of our lives in the persuit of this elusive knowledge, and that previously unknown answers can sometimes be provided by even the most neophyte amongst us, as inspiration is a gift from the creatrix that often lands in the laps of the most inexperienced of pupils.
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28th July 2007, 06:24 AM
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#8 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
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Dear Hana,
Quote:
What you said is true, but bear in mind... most of us here are not experts, nor claim to be one (me included). This is a place to share... when we have an opinion, we state it such. If we have our opinion... presented as facts, then others will want that fact to be supported or where the info originated. This would help us explore further... etc. To err is human, we do make mistakes and at times, got corrected. We learn from our mistake and the mistakes of others, then we move on... Quote:
Hana, you mentioned that you are forthright, but up to now, I still could not figure out whom you are refering to as the keris experts,  (you can email me).I believe the others can stand their own ground... for years they've done so. I wish you the very best of luck in your quest for... hmmm... whatever that you're looking for. Cheers.
Last edited by Alam Shah; 28th July 2007 at 07:20 AM. |
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29th July 2007, 04:13 PM
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#9 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
This is just small additional notes on the specific term of "rondo beser" (widow that too often goes to toilet) you mentioned in your post. The term "rondo beser", is only used in a keris or kerises which have "sogokan" (one of two vertical niches in the sor-soran or the base of a keris). It is called "rondo beser" if the "sogokan" has perforated (not crack, but kind of hole in the sogokan). If you mentioned "dhapur sombro", it must be a keris which has no sogokan. Thus, the right term is not "rondo beser", but "pamengkang jagat" (crack in the middle of the base of keris, in vertical position...) Sombro, actually is the name of a female empu of Pajajaran, around 10th century. And not the name of dhapur. The forms of kerises made by "Ni mBok Sombro" (designation of this female empu), usually was very simple. (See Ensiklopedi Keris, Bambang Harsrinuksmo page 439) Keris without sogokan, but some of them (believed) usually has kind of "traces of finger press" along the blade... Some Javanese people -- according to Bambang Harsrinuksmo -- believed that kerises (many of them with the very simple in form and also in metal material) made by sombro have "invisible power"... Ganjawulung |
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10th August 2007, 08:29 PM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 199
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Pamengkang Jagad / Rondo Beser
Dear Kerislovers,
Finally, as I promised you, I upload keris, shape: sombro with Pamengkan Jagad or Rondho Beser. Hope you will enjoy and continue the discussion of spirit and (inside) keris. warm regards, Usman |
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12th August 2007, 06:58 AM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 199
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Dear Kerislovers,
Now, we have well-information about "Pamengkang Jagad" and "Rondho Beser". One still neglected is "Combong". Three of them have a similiar characteristic which having hole in their blade, dont they? I havent ever seen "Combong". I just hear about it. Does anyone have an information about Keris "Combong"? Instead of lack of forging, a lot of people believe Keris Combong has great spiritual power especially to lure. If I am not mistaken. Perhaps, as I started, we can share images of Pamengkan Jagad, Rondho Beser dan Combong for enriching ours. Warm regards, Usman |
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12th August 2007, 08:48 AM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
As far as I know, the crack in your betok is not "pamengkang jagat", but "combong". Pamengkang jagat is not as big crack as combong. Often, the pamengkang jagat's crack only one piece of hair size. Some stones (agates) can have "combong" crack too, and some people believed such stones have certain "power". I don't know the exact English word for "combong". May be big crack in a hard material, something like that... Ganjawulung |
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12th August 2007, 09:15 PM
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#13 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 74
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Hello to all,
What about keris picit or putut kembar? Do you think that these kerises possesss special "power"? Some say that if a keris is "built" by the fingers, then is much more powerful than an ordinary one..Also the "praying priests" indicate something about the keris? Something spiritual maybe? Ganjagulung can you enlight us? george |
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13th August 2007, 04:18 AM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
i am not mastering in 'spiritual power' in kerises. Though, I will help you to get a bit of information on that. Keris pichit, in Javanese term known as "keris pejetan". Simple model of kerises, which have kind of "traces" as if of "finger pressing" at the blade. Some "puthut kembar" (twin priests) have kind of "finger pressing" like this, but not always. Keris pejetan, usually iras or without ganja (one piece blade). Many myths surrounds this type of simple blade. But many stories, connected these simple made kerises to a woman name of Empu Ni Mbok Sombro -- some believed she was a woman empu from the Pajajaran era (before Majapahit era, about 10th century). Yes, some people believed that such kerises have kind of "power". Keris pejetan, known also as keris with "luk samun" (hidden luks). Some people, even counts the numbers of pejetan in the blade. Some have 11, or 13 pejetans, as if they are luks in kerises -- though the blades are actually straight kerises. So, keris pejetan is a "straight keris but with luks"... The simple appearance, believed to show the intention of the maker or makers that such kerises were not for "weapon", but for special meaning. May be amulet, talisman, or kind of that. The iron of the blade, usually is good kind of old iron. Usually, the dhapur is "brojol", the most simple model of straight keris.. Puthut kembar, is often "mistakenly" mentioned as "keris umyang". Umyang actually was not a dhapur name, but a name of a famous long living empu believed to live in the very end of Majapahit era, and into Demak, Pajang and the beginning of Islamic Mataram era. The appearance of this kind of keris, is quite simple, though "attractive" because of the odd reliefs of puthut in the "gandhik" (front base of keris) and "wadidang" (rear base of keris). Umyang, known as an eccentric empu, so the keris which was widely named as "keris umyang" believed to have certain magical power. It is just my humble information... Ganjawulung |
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