Chinese sword: real or fake?

[Tatyana Dianova]

I have bought this sword at the local antique fair. The seller claimed that it was brought to him by the grandson of the German officier that served in China during the Boxer Rebellion.
It seems to be the genuine sword: the blade have some battle nicks, was definitely resharpened, was bent and straightened afterwards. It feels in hand and looks like a real battle blade, has 2 grooves, some old black patina and is made from damascus steel (it is clearly evident from the wavy patina near the cutting edge and patina circles inside the grooves). The wood handle is covered with cord, which is very old and often tears from the simple touch. The cord was painted blue - you may still see the rest of the paint. The fittings are brass and show dragons theme. I have cleaned them a bit. The scabbard is very simple and is made of 2 pieces of black laquered wood.
But I still have my doubts: it is CHINESE sword and I haven't seen anything like this anywhere else. Any opinions about age and provenance?

[Tim Simmons]

Looks like a really good find to me. Excellent

[Henk]

I agree with Tim.

You see a nice patern on the blade. Don't want to call it wootz or damascus but I know that I like this one. Good find, congrats!

[josh stout]

I think that is quite a nice find. It looks like rare horse tooth pattern welding on the blade.

Nice.

Josh

[Tatyana Dianova]

After some consideration, a light polish and light etch were made, and I am more than satisfied with the results

[Tim Simmons]

You are a winner thats for sure!!

[Flavio]

Cogratulations!!! This is a beauty What you have used to etch the blade?

[spiral]

Wonderfull lamination! Congratulations!

Spiral

[asomotif]

amazing blade !!!
Congratulations !!!

[Marc]

... and, now, is this kind of lamination what started to turn on some red lights in my panel...

If I may ask... what was used as etching medium? For how long was it applied on the blade?

My familiarity with antique chinese swords is too limited, I'm afraid, that's why I'm asking, but... is THIS kind of lamination really likely to be found in antique chinese dao? Not lamination per se, but this one, with the big "pool" pattern, so similar to the cheapest kind of commercially available pattern welded steel, lightly forged, heavily ground down, with no inserted edge....
Maybe it's only my paranoia, PROBABLY it is, but I would appreciate anyone really familiar with this kind of weaponry to come and smack me in the head, if so...

[Tatyana Dianova]

Thank you all for replies! Now about etching: after the blade was polished several times with 600 grit wet paper (with oil) I have used 75 % Phosphoric Acid. After 5-10 minutes of etching the blade was ready. Then again a very light polish (with 1000 paper and oil) was applied to make the blade surface shining and transparent. The Damascus steel is now like a 3D picture ( if you see, what I mean) and really beautiful, but it is impossible to show on the pictures. To make the "flashy "pictures above (to show better the steel pattern) I have used a very strong contrasting tool in Photoshop (I love Photoshop ), but in reality the pattern is seen only under correct light and angle and is subtle, like hada and hamon on Japanese swords. The picture nearest to reality is third from top, where you can see the whole sword.
The interesting feature to me is that the blade construction looks like on old Indonesian Keris: it has a core steel (it is easy to see near the cutting edge) which is covered by the layers of the Damascus Steel. Maybe it is the same as inserted edge that the Marc talks about. And about Damascus pattern and the sword itself (its origin, name and age) I would like to hear some replies from specialists too, because that was really the theme of this thread. To me it looks and feels like a real old sword, which has seen some use during its life (see description above)

[Bill M]

Small question about the hanger holes. I don't see round holes on any of my older Chinese swords' hangers. Most have half moon shaped holes. Possibly drilled instead of punched?

Perhaps it is my paranoia in dealing with Chinese items. Don't mean to rain on your parade. Would not kick it out of my sword rack.

[josh stout]

I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one.

As for the pattern welding: This is a wonderful and very valuable 'horse tooth pattern” that can no longer be made by any modern smith. Those who are concerned by the strong pattern similar to the strong round patterns seen on many fakes should look at the way the pattern meets the inserted edge. You will not find this on fakes. Also, there are two separate pattern welds indicating an even higher level of sophistication. There is the pattern at the back that was attached via piled construction to the bar into which the edge was inserted with the horse tooth pattern weld. This construction is usually only found on twist core blades. I cannot quite make out the pattern on the back, but it might almost be a kind of twist core. I would appreciate if a smith could explain it to me.

Entering the realm of speculation, this looks like a late piece from the end of the 19thC made for a wealthy connoisseur or officer. The fittings would not indicate a particularly high rank, but the blade indicates the owner had significant wealth. I have seen other late show pieces with twist core blades or other fancy pattern welds and this one seems to fit in with that type.
Josh

[josh stout]

OK, I looked some more and see what looks like a dip in the blade edge as if damage had been ground away. This may be an older blade put together in the late 19th C or early 20th C with new fittings and scabbard. This could explain the general feeling that some seem to have that there is something slightly strange. I still think the fittings have some age, but there is a certain hurried look to the fittings that does not match the quality of the blade. All in all one of the finest blades I have seen with fittings that are not quite up to the same standard.
Josh

[Tatyana Dianova]

Thank you very much, Josh, for your explanation. Yes, the blade has some battle damage: some nicks from sword blows on the cutting edge and on the back of the blade, as well as several dips (seems like earlier nicks were sharpened / removed).
The most funny thing about this sword is that I even did not know that it has a Damascus blade when I was buying it - so rusty it was! But the Damascus pattern is so bold that it was good visible immediately after the active surface rust was removed. And during polishing it was more and more evident even without etching.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by josh stout

I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one. Josh

Sure Josh. Here are examples on some of my dao and a jian. The dao have old or original fittings. The jian has Long Quan fittings that are careful copies of the originals.

All these pieces were either bought from Phillip Tom or recommended by him.

He told me there were periods where the holes were punched, like the half-moon or drilled. I really can't remember which is better or if there really is a huge difference in the age or quality. It seems he liked the half-moon. But it may also be that he liked the half-moon for a particular period. I wish I could be more certain.

Incidentally the one with the ball pommel has the yellow grip cord indicating it belonged to a royal family member. That one is a a goose quill. The others are willow leaf and the ox-tail.

[spiral]

That blade speaks of true quality to me. its fittings look handled, not sharp & new.

To my eye Its leaves the fakes the Chinese have been selling to westerners for the last 100 years in the dust.

Spiral

[Tatyana Dianova]

Thankyou Bill for sharing pictures of these wonderful swords with us! Can you please post also the whole sword pictures? Does any of them has Damascus blade?

[Bill M]

Thank you Tatyana. I will post more pictures soon. They all have patterned blades. San mei construction.

[Nick Wardigo]

Tatyana--
A very nice blade with what appears to be the original handle fittings and wrap. Or, at least, they have a good amount of age. I usually associate this style of wrap to the early-to-mid 19th century...a little earlier than Josh's educated guess, but Josh could easily be correct as well. The blade COULD be older, but barring further evidence (like viewing the corrosion on the tang), I would guess not. The style of the blade is keeping with that date. Definitely looks like an inserted edge to me, and as Josh pointed out, an unusual "horse tooth" weld between the soft and hard steels.

The scabbard looks later...I would guess early 20th century. I mean, it wasn't made last week, but it isn't original. On almost all Chinese swords, the scabbard fittings match the hilt fittings. As you can see, the hilt fittings are rather ornately decorated, and the scabbard fittings are very plain. However, it seems like the scabbard is a good fit, and I would expect that this scabbard was made for this blade (rather than recycling another scabbard).

Josh--
I'm a little perplexed by your assertion that horse-tooth patterning cannot be replicated by modern smiths. It's true that I haven't seen any dating later than the early 20th century, but I have seen a lot of very beautiful modern pattern welding, including some very sophisticated twist-core. I'd be surprised if a smith couldn't replicate this. Whether it would be cost-effective is another matter entirely.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Thank you Nick for your input! Yes, the scabbard fits perfectly.
Are there any books on Chinese swords available??? Alas, I do not have anything in my library on the subject...

[Marc]

Thank you for the clarifications, I must confess that the boldness of the contrast set me off.

Josh is right, of course, there's an inserted edge. I can't really make out a distinct pattern at the back, but without more detailed pictures or direct access to the blade, I can't go beyond just an opinion.

I have also to admit an instinctive distrust of Chinese "antiques", probably exacerbated after I had to certify, some time ago, the authenticity of some allegedly Shang/Zhou bronze vessels that ended up being very decent fakes. The problem wasn't really spotting them, but justify it in front of the customer, who thought to have inherited a small (or not so small) fortune...
The world of art/antique fakes is an ugly jungle, and in some areas the Chinese are real masters of this "craft".

Again, thanks for clarifying it.

[Tatyana Dianova]

OK, I have tried to make some pictures of the pattern at the back of the blade. Hope this helps.

[Nick Wardigo]

Beautiful blade.

Sadly, there are no books exclusively on the subject of Chinese swords (at least, not in the English language). There is an article on China in the book SWORDS AND HILT WEAPONS, but it's only marginally useful, focusing on a very general overview of Chinese history.

Phil Tom wrote an excellent article on Qing Dynasty sabers in the METROPOLITAN MUSEUM JOURNAL, VOLUME 36/2001. It's a little pricey for a 15-page article, but the photography is outstanding, and there's even a picture of horse-tooth patterning very similar to yours. The article focuses on several excellent Chinese sabers that the museum owns.

Bill--
I'm very interested in seeing more photos of your sabers. May I suggest opening new threads for them? For one thing, I wouldn't want to hijack this thread, and for another, I think your sabers are of sufficient quality to warrant a separate discussion.

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by Nick Wardigo

Josh--
I'm a little perplexed by your assertion that horse-tooth patterning cannot be replicated by modern smiths. It's true that I haven't seen any dating later than the early 20th century, but I have seen a lot of very beautiful modern pattern welding, including some very sophisticated twist-core. I'd be surprised if a smith couldn't replicate this. Whether it would be cost-effective is another matter entirely.

Well I have not gone around checking this, but Kenneth who is studying sword smithing with Zhou-Zheng-Wu made this claim on SFI as have a few others. At the time some Western sword smiths thought it should be possible to recreate, I just have not seen it done.

You make a good point that the scabbard does not match the same style as the handle fittings. I was focusing on the scabbard when I was thinking it was younger than the blade. Certainly the ornate guard and pommel match the quality of the blade better than the scabbard.

The pattern weld is still a bit of a puzzle. These latest pictures don't show the line I thought was evidence of piled construction of the type one sees with twist core. Now it is looking like what I think is called "pool and eye" pattern though I am not good at pattern weld names. The Chinese would call this "flowery steel" (hua gang?).
Josh

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Sure Josh. Here are examples on some of my dao and a jian. The dao have old or original fittings. The jian has Long Quan fittings that are careful copies of the originals.

All these pieces were either bought from Phillip Tom or recommended by him.

He told me there were periods where the holes were punched, like the half-moon or drilled. I really can't remember which is better or if there really is a huge difference in the age or quality. It seems he liked the half-moon. But it may also be that he liked the half-moon for a particular period. I wish I could be more certain.

Ah, now I see what you mean. Thank you. I think you are correct that the round holes are later, but I think you would need a few things to go on before giving a date.
Josh

[Philip]

I'm a bit late to this thread, having just been alerted by Nick Wardigo. Someone made the comment that the fittings were not up to the quality of the blade. Yes and no. I believe it was Nick who opined that the scabbard is a later replacement of indifferent quality, and I agree. Probably a "field expedient" made quickly just to have something to protect the blade and carry it around in.

The hilt fittings were originally quite good. They are in the style and quality of the late 18th thru early 19th cent., with the archaistic dragon motifs in relief that started to appear on both gun and saber decoration as early as the latter 17th. The surfaces of the pommel and ferrule are extremely worn, blurring the design, but a good look at the surfaces of the guard show something of the original condition of the work. The wear on the hilt is consistent with the signs of hard usage evident on the blade before its restoration.

The cord wrapping on the grip looks to be in very sound condition, and considering the amount of wear on the metal parts, it is probably not the original. It could date from the time the scabbard was replaced.

[Philip]

There is no question that this saber is "the real McCoy" and is definitely not a modern repro.

However, a reader expressed doubts that this technique is used at present, and this post addresses this point only.

Yes, the "machi" (horse tooth) has been made recently by some Japanese smiths, following the tradition of the Gassan (moon mountain) sword school, which was said to have been founded centuries ago by an immigrant smith from China. Also, a contemporary swordsmith named Vincent Evans here in the US has made several Chinese style blades with this same equine dentition.

[Nick Wardigo]

Josh Stout wrote:

These latest pictures don't show the line I thought was evidence of piled construction of the type one sees with twist core. Now it is looking like what I think is called "pool and eye" pattern though I am not good at pattern weld names. The Chinese would call this "flowery steel" (hua gang?).

Josh--
It may be overthinking the pattern-welding process to assign definite terms to every variation in patterning. When you say "pool and eye", I believe you are referring to a patterning that shows up in Persian (and, I think, Indian) wootz which is sometimes called, "rose." And, indeed, those recurring patterns were intentionally created by the smith (much like the "ladder of the Prophet" pattern). In the case of this Chinese saber, while the "pools" do resemble the "rose" pattern, I think they're just incidental to the horse-tooth forging. That is to say, the horse-tooth patterning was intentional, and in the process of forcing the lower-carbon cheek into that shape, the layers of steel were compacted and stretched to make pool-like shapes, but the pool-like shapes weren't intentional themselves. They were by-products of the horse-tooth pattern.

I haven't done a lot of research into Chinese forging nomenclature, but I think "hua gang" is a rather ambiguous term applied to patterned steel in general. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen it used to differentiate in same way as the word "sham" is used to refer to a very specific type of wootz.

[josh stout]

Thank you Phillip and Nick for your informative replies. I have much to learn about pattern welding. It is nice to hear that the horse tooth pattern has been recreated/is still being made. I usually try and avoid making categorical statements that get me in trouble like I did, but I wanted to come down strongly against any claims the blade was recent.

Nick, I do not speak Chinese, just Chinese sword so I can just comment on the way I see "hua gang" used. It does not seem specific to particular pattern welds, but does seem to include all the more interesting ones while not referring to plain pattern welds. So I was trying to say that I don't know the name for the pattern weld, but that it would certainly be included with the "flowery" ones. The horse tooth pattern alone would support that.

Thank you both for the help.
Josh.