16thC African Sword

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 03:56 PM

Hello Brian, no this is Ijzerwerk van centraal-afrika (H. Westerdijk). This sword is from Congo tribe (tribe that is located near the congo-zaire river and the first that the Europen met when they "touched" the now a days Congo shores). For what I know these swords are 19th century old but for sure they copied the Portuguese older swords (see also this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369) and they are more currencies than real weapons, but for sure there must be some older exemples that were the precedents of those that we can see today and that were real weapons

Edit: If I understand well (If the translator is correct

) in some examples the blades are imported from Europe and so at least some of these were real weapons and some still have some ivory pieces on the handle (and so no currencies at all). Where are our Belgian friends (Freddy!!!!)

???? The page is 66 (Groep X)

B.I · 25th April 2007, 04:47 PM

Hi Flavio,
It isnt my field, but I am pretty sure this is the real thing, and not 19thC. I couldnt get close to it, but it had all the asthetics of an old sword.
I think I will have to post the images later on, and maybe also get Marc and Fernando involved.

Tim Simmons · 25th April 2007, 05:20 PM

Some more from "Armes traditionnelles d'Afrique" Found around Congo and Angola. As mentioned based on old swords but not that old in themselves.

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 05:52 PM

Hello Brian, I will look forward to see your pics because since now I have seen just rusty examples on the web that are for sure not real weapons and not so old, but I have already said that there must be some older examples that were for the real use and that are the "prototype".
More on the book "Beauty in the blade" (Marc Leo Felix and Jan Elsen) there is said that these swords were produced still in recent times with the same "form" because they were also status symbol and so the shape of the blade and the hilt must remain the same over the centuries.

From Beauty in the blade:

Freddy · 25th April 2007, 07:09 PM

Here I am, Flavio. Sorry, but I had to work

Here's the translation from the book you mentioned earlier :

The area of the Kongo-tribe had the earliest European influence in Congo. This was the first region where European weapons were introduced. Especially swords from Spain or Portugal were imported into the Kongo empire. And very soon, locals smiths took over the production of this type of sword. Due to the import of guns, local production of weapons declined. The only remainin witnesses are the rare swords which were used as symbols of authority by the rulers of the Kongo empire. ...

A bit further the author continues :

The handles of most swords have perished. But some still have an ivory handle. Not all of the sword blades were locally made. Some were of European origin ...

In 'Dodelijk Mooi' (Beauté fatale or Deadly Beauty) the author states :

In the vicinity of the Zaïre (Kongo) estuary, a ceremonial sword can be found which is produced in imitation of old Portuguese swords.

Here's a pic form 'Dodelijk mooi' (with sheath).

local name : mbeele za lulendo
materials used : iron, ivory, wood, leather
collected in 1988
dimensions : 89,1 cm (sword) - 71,2 cm (sheath)
collection of Jan Elsen

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 08:00 PM

Thank you very much Freddy

fernando · 25th April 2007, 10:15 PM

Hi Brian
No comparison possible between me and Marc. I am just less than an ignorant, while Marc is a master.
But let's pretend that sword is actually of Portuguese influence or inheritance.
As just said the other day in the thread signaled by Flavio, these Afro-Portuguese swords were originaly mounted by Portuguese resident smiths ( XV century ), but quickly imitated by the Congolese artisans. While the Portuguese production has soon ceased, the Congolese kept making them until the XIX century. It is of general knowledge that actual Portuguese specimens are very, very rare. On the other hand, the British Museum is a serious house. I would have no doubt that their example is real old, which doesn't avoid that it is a native made piece, from the early period.
It is said that in both cases the blades were imported from Europe, which makes it dificult to distinguish either version, if it weren't for the hilt quality aspect.
These swords have played an important role in Congo society, where the Kings got to be christianized.The Cross symbols being perforated in the superior quillons, besides the respect (?) reached by the Portuguese , made these swords achieve a symbolic status, becoming possession of local aristrocacy, still today called swords of authority.
I have spotted these pictures the other day
http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2631
http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2388
http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2633
http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2635
I am not at all an expert, but these examples's crudeness is well visible.
I look forward to seing those pictures of yours, and so will the other experimented members.
kind regards
fernando

25th April 2007, 03:56 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Brian, no this is Ijzerwerk van centraal-afrika (H. Westerdijk). This sword is from Congo tribe (tribe that is located near the congo-zaire river and the first that the Europen met when they "touched" the now a days Congo shores). For what I know these swords are 19th century old but for sure they copied the Portuguese older swords (see also this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369) and they are more currencies than real weapons, but for sure there must be some older exemples that were the precedents of those that we can see today and that were real weapons Edit: If I understand well (If the translator is correct ) in some examples the blades are imported from Europe and so at least some of these were real weapons and some still have some ivory pieces on the handle (and so no currencies at all). Where are our Belgian friends (Freddy!!!!) ???? The page is 66 (Groep X) Last edited by Flavio; 25th April 2007 at 04:22 PM.

25th April 2007, 05:20 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Some more from "Armes traditionnelles d'Afrique" Found around Congo and Angola. As mentioned based on old swords but not that old in themselves. Attached Images

25th April 2007, 05:52 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Brian, I will look forward to see your pics because since now I have seen just rusty examples on the web that are for sure not real weapons and not so old, but I have already said that there must be some older examples that were for the real use and that are the "prototype". More on the book "Beauty in the blade" (Marc Leo Felix and Jan Elsen) there is said that these swords were produced still in recent times with the same "form" because they were also status symbol and so the shape of the blade and the hilt must remain the same over the centuries. From Beauty in the blade: Attached Images Last edited by Flavio; 25th April 2007 at 06:06 PM.

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25th April 2007, 04:47 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hi Flavio, It isnt my field, but I am pretty sure this is the real thing, and not 19thC. I couldnt get close to it, but it had all the asthetics of an old sword. I think I will have to post the images later on, and maybe also get Marc and Fernando involved.

25th April 2007, 07:09 PM	#5
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Here I am, Flavio. Sorry, but I had to work Here's the translation from the book you mentioned earlier : The area of the Kongo-tribe had the earliest European influence in Congo. This was the first region where European weapons were introduced. Especially swords from Spain or Portugal were imported into the Kongo empire. And very soon, locals smiths took over the production of this type of sword. Due to the import of guns, local production of weapons declined. The only remainin witnesses are the rare swords which were used as symbols of authority by the rulers of the Kongo empire. ... A bit further the author continues : The handles of most swords have perished. But some still have an ivory handle. Not all of the sword blades were locally made. Some were of European origin ... In 'Dodelijk Mooi' (Beauté fatale or Deadly Beauty) the author states : In the vicinity of the Zaïre (Kongo) estuary, a ceremonial sword can be found which is produced in imitation of old Portuguese swords. Here's a pic form 'Dodelijk mooi' (with sheath). local name : mbeele za lulendo materials used : iron, ivory, wood, leather collected in 1988 dimensions : 89,1 cm (sword) - 71,2 cm (sheath) collection of Jan Elsen

25th April 2007, 08:00 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you very much Freddy

25th April 2007, 10:15 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Brian No comparison possible between me and Marc. I am just less than an ignorant, while Marc is a master. But let's pretend that sword is actually of Portuguese influence or inheritance. As just said the other day in the thread signaled by Flavio, these Afro-Portuguese swords were originaly mounted by Portuguese resident smiths ( XV century ), but quickly imitated by the Congolese artisans. While the Portuguese production has soon ceased, the Congolese kept making them until the XIX century. It is of general knowledge that actual Portuguese specimens are very, very rare. On the other hand, the British Museum is a serious house. I would have no doubt that their example is real old, which doesn't avoid that it is a native made piece, from the early period. It is said that in both cases the blades were imported from Europe, which makes it dificult to distinguish either version, if it weren't for the hilt quality aspect. These swords have played an important role in Congo society, where the Kings got to be christianized.The Cross symbols being perforated in the superior quillons, besides the respect (?) reached by the Portuguese , made these swords achieve a symbolic status, becoming possession of local aristrocacy, still today called swords of authority. I have spotted these pictures the other day http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2631 http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2388 http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2633 http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2635 I am not at all an expert, but these examples's crudeness is well visible. I look forward to seing those pictures of yours, and so will the other experimented members. kind regards fernando