Good news /bad news Tulwar.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for showing the details – excellent pictures.

The decoration at the top of the blade is strange, I can't recall to have seen one like it before, and can't offer any suggestions. The dotted circle with a dot in the middle is another puzzle. It reminds me of the flower on the kora blades, but I don't know if it represents the same, and if it does, one must really say that it is very stylized. I hope someone else on the forum can help with informations. On the weapons I have with dot markings most of the dots are triangle as well, which must be due to the form of the tool used.

[Pukka Bundook]

Ariel,
I'm pleased you think it looks better!
Up to now I haven't been intelligent enough to withstand a challenge like this,...May get smarter one day!

Jens,
Thank you for taking interest in the marks. Some idea of what they mean may come to light one day.
All very interesting!

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Ariel,
I'm pleased you think it looks better!
Up to now I haven't been intelligent enough to withstand a challenge like this,...May get smarter one day!

Jens,
Thank you for taking interest in the marks. Some idea of what they mean may come to light one day.
All very interesting!

I never thought it would look that good. it was a priceless experience for you and a lesson for me.
And, of course, the blade finally got what it deserved.
Again, my hat is off to you!

[Pukka Bundook]

Ariel,
I couldn't agree more, ....about it being a priceless experience!
After all, how often can we mess about with an old blade without damaging it??
Really was a wondeful opportunity.

When I get done with this, then there is the question of the scabbard!!
Half upper wood is missing, but midle carrier and long metal cover on lower half intact.
Will be asking for input on wether to fix, leave alone, make new one, or whatever,....but not under this heading!
Thank you again for your kind words,

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

If the scabbard belongs to the blade, and you say it does, then I see no reason why you cant show it here.
When you cleaned the blade, you removed the hilt, was the reason that it would be easier to clean the blade, or someting else?
In your mail #3 second picture it is easy to see that there is a little square plate nailed to the square of the hilt. Usually, if there is anything, it is a little silver flower nailed to the square, what is your little plate made of - iron?
Did the nail go through the blade?

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
Yes, The scabbard goes with this sword.
I will take some pictures and post them here as you suggest.

Re. the hilt, I removed it so I could clamp the blade down easier for the serious filing it required.
The little squares nailed to the square were very thin pieces of silver, and yes, the nail did go through the tang.
When I put the hilt back I thought of putting a little silver flower there.
Would this be wrong?
One of the little pieces of badly cut silver split when I was removing the nail.
The hilt may have been removed before when the broken knuckle-guard had been repaired in its working life.
Hopefully, I'll be able to post scabbard pics very soon!

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

I would put a silver flower where the plate was. It seems to me, that silver placed on the square of the hilt must have had a special meaning. If there is something, it is a silver flower with a diameter of 10-12 millimeters, and the fact that there was a silver square on yours could, like you write, mean that the hilt could have been taken off for some reason or other. They may have run out of silver flowers, and used a little silver plate instead, but why a silver plate and not a little iron plate?

I know that someone on the forum has a tulwar with such a silver flower, but I don't remember where I have seen it – please show it and give the measures.

The blade seems to have a very long ricasso – how long is it?

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
Thank you for the suggestions re. the little silver flower.
It is a pity that we cannot find someone who remembers the reason for silver on the square!
Re. the ricasso, it is 3 3/4".......or about 96mm in length.

Best wishes,
R.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

That is quite a ricasso. On my tulwars the ricasso is 15-75 mm, and some of the blades does not have a ricasso, even the Indian made ones.

I will try to concentrate on the silver flower, and see what I can find out.

Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
I was unaware that the ricasso on this tulwar was unusually long.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

The fullers on the 'off side of the blade go right up to the hilt, yet on the right hand side end well back.
Was this to allow room for the owner to add his personal mark, or "doodlings"
Such as we see in this case?
(Obviously these 'scratchings are not professionaly done!)

Any information you could 'dig up' re. the flower would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks again,
R.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

The blade is Indian, not European, and what you write about the fullers is really interesting, as this means that the 'doodlings' were planed before the blade was made, or the fullers would, no doubt, have been of the same length. If you plan a decoration like that, before or when the blade is being made, this decoration must have been important to the owner.

Yes, I will let you know, when I know more about the floral decoration.

Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Here are some pictures of the broken scabbard. Any suggestions regarding mending this, making new wood and a top fitting to match?
Any other suggestions?

Jens, would this little flower be OK?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hmm, well Richard, the scabbard seems a bit short for the tulwar, and I won't suggest that it was intended – like a faster draw, or something like that. I suggest that you find someone who can make a nice new scabbard. There are some in the US who does these things nicely, and I think there are one or two at least in Canada as well, but make sure that the red cloth under the mounts is kept as it is. Any problems finding someone try to yell on the forum, if it does not help let me know.

Yes I think a flower like that will do nicely – did you make it yourself?

[B.I]

Outstanding job, Richard. You seem to be pretty unstoppable!!
You can only admire/pity/envy someone who has no concept of how hard something is to do, and so just bowls in head first
This is the style of flower Jens mentioned, on a worn hilt. Yours is pretty damn close!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi B.I,
Thanks for showing the flower. Yes the flower chosen is close and will look nice on the hilt.

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
NO no, the scabbard's the right lenth,...... On one side anyway!!........It's just that the 'outside' has been broken off level with the centre fitting.
If you think it needs new wood, I could make it, and fix it up with the old fittings, plus it needs an upper fitting making.
Didn't know wether I should just add new wood to the broken parts.

The red under the fittings is something like very thin copper sheet, The inside looks a copper colour, yet the outside seen through the holes in fittings, is a bright red. Not sure what it is.....Doesn't appear painted on.

Yes, I made the little flowers, I had a bit of silver sheet.

BI,
thank you for posting pictures of the wee flower, might alter mine a bit to look more like this one!

Does anyone have a photo of an upper fitting, to show me where it sits, etc?
Looks to me that it would have to be below the langets?

Thank you again!
R.

[B.I]

Hi Richard,
Attached is a top scabbard mount. I dont suppose its worth saying it would be very hard to make?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Greg, Jeff, or anyone else, can you give me an estimated of the amount of steel removed from Richard's blade?

If blades were sharpened, or cleaned through the time, as they must have been, why does some collectors pay so much attention to the POB (point of ballance)?

It seems to me, that the POB of any sword, can have changed quite a lot during the life of the sword, so why the big interest, not to say anything about the change of a hilt. Any comments would be apreasiated.

[Tim Simmons]

Not difficult to make just expensive . In Europe and America should I say.

[Jens Nordlunde]

What are you reffering to Tim?

[Tim Simmons]

I could make one but the cost would be pretty much the same as a good sword.

[Jens Nordlunde]

What do you mean Tim?

[Tim Simmons]

sorry Jens, I am talking about a scabbard top replacement and trying to match the old metalwork.

[Pukka Bundook]

Brian,
Thanks for the picture!
Yes, to me it looks a bit of a challenge!..........but there goes that word again,...Challenge!
Challenges have to be met,...Don'cha know?

The scabbard I have has a ring on the middle fitting, so suppose it would also have one on the upper?

Jens,
I believe Tim is referring to the cost of making the upper fitting for the scabbard.

Re. how much metal removed, don't know. More sweat than metal i think!

Tim,
I see what you mean, but in my book I equate difficult and expensive together!.......as in, if it's easy to make, any daft --- can make one, so it should be cheap! Whereas if it's a bit harder to make, then Hmmm,.......it's gonn'a cost you!

Sorry for answering Jen's question to you Tim, Your post came up while I was answering mine!

[Jim McDougall]

I have just caught up on this very interesting thread, and Richard, I can only say you have done an unbelievably remarkable job at saving this well worn and terribly maimed warrior. How lucky this sword was that you were the one who took it in!!
In looking at the later entries where you have included the scabbard, which you indicate is apparantly original to the sword, I wanted to include some important information. This scabbard form, with the long fluted chape piece in iron, as well as pierced iron mounts, is of the form associated with Afghan swords. I have seen examples of Afghan shashka with scabbards of this form and it seems that paluoars often have these type scabbards as well.

It is known of course that weapons such as the tulwar of course diffused from the Northwest Frontier into Afghan regions, and this may be one which followed that course. Many of the weapons in Afghan regions, just as in the Mughal sphere, reflected profound Persian influence. It is interesting to note that the tulwar hilt on this example has unusual flueret style quillon terminals that correspond somewhat to the hilt form shown in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour" p.115) and which the author has curiously labeled the 'purbi' or 'purbiya' hilt (=Eastern, as he claims these derive from Eastern India).
These sharply stylized fleuret type terminals seem distinctly Mughal as they are seen as well on some Mysori hilts, and it would be extremely difficult to assign them to a specific region, or to designate the hilt form with a term such as applied in Pant. It does seem key that the tulwar itself seems to carry Mughal associated form and appears to have been scabbarded by most probably armourers in Afghan regions.

A classic example of a well worthy weapon with some apparantly fascinating history that was all but destined for the scrap heap due to the thoughtless vandalization of some misguided 'person' .....and wonderfully saved by the perseverence of an empassioned collector!! Well done Richard!!!!

Some very good points brought up by Jens as well on these extremely worked on blades, often reprofiled and excessively sharpened, and in this case where a good portion of the blade at the tip appears to be missing....that this may indeed affect the POB of the blade. Regardless of that, the appearance of the blade as it stands now is excellent!

All very best regards,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Jim,
Thank you for the lengthy and detailed reply, and for all the information re. this sword and scabbard!
Thank you again!!

So it appears this sword has a Moghul style hilt, and was scabbarded in the Afghan region?, How fascinating!
I suppose it could have gone through a scabbard or two in its working life, each one possibly distinct according to where circumstance placed it at the time.
Re. the blade tip, It could have lost about an inch, but not much more, unless the present scabbard was made after it had lost the tip.

Interesting thing about the scabbard, it appears to have been made for a left-handed person, as the middle fitting had the longer decorative side on the 'wrong' side. The wood also shows that this is the way it has always been, as it has a pale area where the decoration sat.
Also, the material covering the scabbard is overlapped and glued down what would normally be the 'out' side.

Would it be possible to hazard a guess as to the age of this sword?

Would be most indebted if you could!!

Thanks again for all your help,
Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

You are very observant to notice that the owner seems to have been left handed, very good observation, as I am sure several missed it – like I did. The flower on the square looks very nice.

Jim's comments on the scabbard mounts are good, and give an indication of, from where the sword origins. I once had an Afghan pulouar and the scabbard mounts were like the ones on you scabbard, but they were not pierced.

Jens

[Gt Obach]

i think the steel removed from this blade was minimal... it was in good shape before sanding.. ... now a blade with deep pitts needing a total regrind..... may loose much more metal and may shift the balance point... ..

as for the importance of the balance point..... i'm not a swordsman... so take this with a grain of salt... i find a blade with a balance point closer to the hand is quicker and more gives good control.... this is why a decent fighting knife will have a nice distal taper.. it'll have a quick tip

G

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
I'll keep you up to date when I get to making the wood scabbard and top fitting, but it may take me a while to get at it!.....lots on my plate already.

Greg,
I agree that lightening the blade a bit moves POB back a bit and makes it faster, Only down-side could be it might not cut as strong. (less weight behind the stroke)........But then again, if it can be swung faster, this maybe compensates?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I just had a look in Damascening on Steel and Iron, as Practised in India, London 1892, by T. H. Hendley. In the book he shows a flower on top of the disc, looking very much like the one on your tulwar. He writes that the hilt is from Punjab, NW India at the time, and the scabbard mounts are NW Indian/Afghan – so it all seems to fit together.