ivory hilt/Madura, tree of life with DATE ?

asomotif · 2nd March 2007, 09:34 AM

Dear Keris collectors,

Can someone give me information on this type of hilt and especially on the date that is mentioned on it.
This ivory hilt says 24 1771 1 (24th january 1771

)

Can it be a real date ?
has anyone seen hilts with dates before ?
any comments questions are welcome.

Best regards,
Willem

David · 2nd March 2007, 12:29 PM

That's interesting. I certainly have never seen a dated hilt before, but who knows.

It is also possible that these numbers have a completely different implication, such a magickal number seires or some mystical meaning.
From your photo it appears that these numbers would have been carved at the time of making, but some different angles (a view from the bottom perhaps) and an overall view might be helpful.

Pangeran Datu · 2nd March 2007, 12:50 PM

Hi,

Just a friendly reminder

. I hope you realise that it may be against forum policy to discuss items currently on auction. My apologies if I'm mistaken

.

Regards.

David · 2nd March 2007, 01:06 PM

No Pargeran Datu, you are indeed correct. I am locking this thread until i can check out your accusation and if you are correct it will remain so until said auction is completed.

David · 4th March 2007, 03:34 PM

Since no evidence has arrived that this is a live auction i am re-opening this thread. I think this is a very interesting hilt that calls for some good discussion.
If i do find this piece to be presently in auction i will, of course, re-lock the thread. Just as a reminder (which i am sure you guys don't need

) discussion of live auctions are strictly forbidden, with a 10-day suspension for the original poster for the transgression.

Pangeran Datu · 6th March 2007, 04:36 AM

Hi Willem,

I see that the auction finished early. The seller must have gotten the price he/she was after. I hope you were the successful bidder.

As far as the date on the medal is concerned, I believe that it was a presentation piece, given to some or all of the 3000 or so Madurese troop detachment (prior to departure) assisting the VOC in subjugating Blambangan in the Puputan Bayu I war.
The VOC finally had a sufficiently large force assembled by Oct. 1771, but because of fears that their forces may succumb to disease and pestilence which were endemic in Blambangan at the time, they delayed their attack until 18 Dec. 1771.

All the best.

David · 6th March 2007, 10:40 PM

P.D., your explanation seems very plausible, though it does not explain the 1 and the 24. If this were meant as part of the date it could only be January 24th, which would date the hilt a good 9-11 mons. before the event you believe it commemorates. If it is not part of the date do you have any idea what it's significance might be?

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2007, 12:56 AM

When we guess, anything is possible.

3000 handles all the same?

Yeah, maybe. Also maybe not.

The only person who knows what that number means is the bloke who ordered it carved, and I reckon he's dead.

But if we're allowed to guess, I'll have a guess too :- I reckon its to remind the original owner of the birthday of his senior wife--- if he forgot that he could be in real trouble.

asomotif · 7th March 2007, 08:53 AM

The Keris was sold on a local dutch website.
It went slightly over my budget, so I had to let it go.

However for the sake of conversation some additional pictures.

PS. a friend suggested that maybe it is not a complete date , but that the 1771 is infact some islamic writting

Some comments on that ?

Best regards,
Willem

Alam Shah · 7th March 2007, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

...PS. a friend suggested that maybe it is not a complete date , but that the 1771 is infact some islamic writting

Some comments on that ?

I doubt it's Islamic writing. If it is, then it's 1661. But then again, the number 7 does not look like islamic numeral. I guess we'll never know.

Pangeran Datu · 8th March 2007, 01:23 AM

G'day all,

Alan and Shahrial are right of course. There is so much uncertainty involved,
I merely 'stirred the pot to see what would surface'.

BTW Alan, for the sake of being pedantic, I did write: '...some or all of the 3000 or so ...' as I had doubts about the probability of such a large number as well..
On a more serious note though: What has puzzled me from the beginning is the use of Hindu-Arabic/Decimal numbers and the use of the Julian Calendar, if that is indeed what they are. I would have expected something in Arabic or Hanacaraka using the Islamic Calendar or Saka Calendar.
Maybe it was made for the benefit of a European.
Looking at the photo above, I wonder if the '24' could be a '21'?
If so, I'll make another calculated guess:
If it is a date, then it is: 21-1-1771.
Drawing a VERRYYY long bow, this was the DOB of one Vice-Admiral Arnold Adriaan Buyskes, Commissary-General of the Netherlands East Indies 1816-1818.
Maybe the hilt was made to commemorate his DOB.

Cheers

A. G. Maisey · 8th March 2007, 02:43 AM

Probably for his Madurese wife, so she wouldn't forget his birthday.

David · 8th March 2007, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Probably for his Madurese wife, so she wouldn't forget his birthday.

LOL!!!

A. G. Maisey · 8th March 2007, 07:10 AM

Anyway, whoever, or whatever was responsible for this handle, this is a seriously nice keris.Honest old blade with zilch in the bobble-braid department, good ivory handle, and an absolutely lovely wrongko. This sort of thing just does not come along every day. Nice!

David · 8th March 2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Anyway, whoever, or whatever was responsible for this handle, this is a seriously nice keris.Honest old blade with zilch in the bobble-braid department, good ivory handle, and an absolutely lovely wrongko. This sort of thing just does not come along every day. Nice!

Yes, i would definitely agree...and i think it went for a rather reasonable price. I'm sorry i didn't know about this auction or i would have certainly considered bidding.

Rick · 8th March 2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, i would definitely agree...and i think it went for a rather reasonable price. I'm sorry i didn't know about this auction or i would have certainly considered bidding.

C.I.T.E.S. ???

Or was it located in the States ?

Anyhow, the blade looks fairly short; a Patrem ?

2nd March 2007, 09:34 AM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	ivory hilt/Madura, tree of life with DATE ? Dear Keris collectors, Can someone give me information on this type of hilt and especially on the date that is mentioned on it. This ivory hilt says 24 1771 1 (24th january 1771 ) Can it be a real date ? has anyone seen hilts with dates before ? any comments questions are welcome. Best regards, Willem Attached Images

2nd March 2007, 12:50 PM	#3
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Transgression of auction-in-progress item? Hi, Just a friendly reminder. I hope you realise that it may be against forum policy to discuss items currently on auction. My apologies if I'm mistaken. Regards.

7th March 2007, 08:53 AM	#9
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	The Keris was sold on a local dutch website. It went slightly over my budget, so I had to let it go. However for the sake of conversation some additional pictures. PS. a friend suggested that maybe it is not a complete date , but that the 1771 is infact some islamic writting Some comments on that ? Best regards, Willem Attached Images

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2nd March 2007, 12:29 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	That's interesting. I certainly have never seen a dated hilt before, but who knows. It is also possible that these numbers have a completely different implication, such a magickal number seires or some mystical meaning. From your photo it appears that these numbers would have been carved at the time of making, but some different angles (a view from the bottom perhaps) and an overall view might be helpful.

2nd March 2007, 01:06 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	No Pargeran Datu, you are indeed correct. I am locking this thread until i can check out your accusation and if you are correct it will remain so until said auction is completed.

4th March 2007, 03:34 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	Since no evidence has arrived that this is a live auction i am re-opening this thread. I think this is a very interesting hilt that calls for some good discussion. If i do find this piece to be presently in auction i will, of course, re-lock the thread. Just as a reminder (which i am sure you guys don't need ) discussion of live auctions are strictly forbidden, with a 10-day suspension for the original poster for the transgression.

6th March 2007, 04:36 AM	#6
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Hi Willem, I see that the auction finished early. The seller must have gotten the price he/she was after. I hope you were the successful bidder. As far as the date on the medal is concerned, I believe that it was a presentation piece, given to some or all of the 3000 or so Madurese troop detachment (prior to departure) assisting the VOC in subjugating Blambangan in the Puputan Bayu I war. The VOC finally had a sufficiently large force assembled by Oct. 1771, but because of fears that their forces may succumb to disease and pestilence which were endemic in Blambangan at the time, they delayed their attack until 18 Dec. 1771. All the best.

6th March 2007, 10:40 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	P.D., your explanation seems very plausible, though it does not explain the 1 and the 24. If this were meant as part of the date it could only be January 24th, which would date the hilt a good 9-11 mons. before the event you believe it commemorates. If it is not part of the date do you have any idea what it's significance might be?

7th March 2007, 12:56 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	When we guess, anything is possible. 3000 handles all the same? Yeah, maybe. Also maybe not. The only person who knows what that number means is the bloke who ordered it carved, and I reckon he's dead. But if we're allowed to guess, I'll have a guess too :- I reckon its to remind the original owner of the birthday of his senior wife--- if he forgot that he could be in real trouble.

8th March 2007, 01:23 AM	#11
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	G'day all, Alan and Shahrial are right of course. There is so much uncertainty involved, I merely 'stirred the pot to see what would surface'. BTW Alan, for the sake of being pedantic, I did write: '...some or all of the 3000 or so ...' as I had doubts about the probability of such a large number as well.. On a more serious note though: What has puzzled me from the beginning is the use of Hindu-Arabic/Decimal numbers and the use of the Julian Calendar, if that is indeed what they are. I would have expected something in Arabic or Hanacaraka using the Islamic Calendar or Saka Calendar. Maybe it was made for the benefit of a European. Looking at the photo above, I wonder if the '24' could be a '21'? If so, I'll make another calculated guess: If it is a date, then it is: 21-1-1771. Drawing a VERRYYY long bow, this was the DOB of one Vice-Admiral Arnold Adriaan Buyskes, Commissary-General of the Netherlands East Indies 1816-1818. Maybe the hilt was made to commemorate his DOB. Cheers

8th March 2007, 02:43 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Probably for his Madurese wife, so she wouldn't forget his birthday.

8th March 2007, 07:10 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Anyway, whoever, or whatever was responsible for this handle, this is a seriously nice keris.Honest old blade with zilch in the bobble-braid department, good ivory handle, and an absolutely lovely wrongko. This sort of thing just does not come along every day. Nice!