steel and iron weaponry of the american natives.........

[David]

Thanks for that detailed and fascinating history Yanyeidi. As you have revealled, sometimes these sacred artifacts are actually sold by the natives themselves, but as community property this not through consent of the tribe, but the through the greed of a single individual.
Tim, my use of the word European was merely to make a distinction between the Indians and the invaders. I merely meant people of European descent. Not just Americans, but also Canadians had a hand in the affairs of NWC indians. Neither was particularly more sympathetic or understanding of native ways and culture.

[Jeff D]

The return of cultural properties to the people that own them are not unique to native North Americans. In 1978 Canada signed the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property act. Essentially this means any signing member countrys can buy back any cultural artifacts if they were illegally removed. So by all means Fenris try to get back your claymore.

Lets face it as nice as that dagger would look on my wall, I would rather it be where Yanyeidi has placed it.

Jeff

[Yanyeidi]

Oops, that should read October 26, 1882.

October 18 is "Alaska Day'-- when Alaska celebrates the purchase of Alaska from Russia-- actually all they owned was inside the stockade at Sitka as they were scared to death of the Tlingits, and only sold trading rights with that small piece of real estate; somehow the U.S. thought they bought the whole territory!

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Yanyeidi

somehow the U.S. thought they bought the whole territory!

Don't even mention the pan handle

Jeff

[VANDOO]

THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AS WELL AS MASKS AND DAGGERS FROM THOSE TRIBES HAVE BEEN MADE AND FAKED FOR QUITE A LONG TIME EVER SINCE THERE WAS A MARKET AND DEMAND FOR THEM BY COLLECTORS. AS WITH ANYTHING THAT BRINGS THE BIG MONEY AT A BIG NAME ETHINOGRAPHIC AUCTION SOME GOOD REPLICA/ FAKES SOON SHOW UP. I HAVE SEEN THE DAGGERS ,RATTLES,MASKS AND CLUBS AT FLEA MARKETS AND GUN SHOWS FOR YEARS . THE QUALITY VARRIES BUT IS USUALLY GOOD AND THE PRICES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOO HIGH FOR ME. THERE ARE SOME REAL ONES AROUND AS WELL BUT YOU REALLY HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO BUY SAFELY AS THE FAKES CAN BE VERY GOOD AND YOU CAN LOOSE A LOT OF MONEY QUICKLY.

I THINK IF A MUSEUM HAS A REAL TRIBAL DAGGER THAT THE TRIBE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE BACK FOR TRIBAL CEREMONYS OR ANY REASON EXCEPT RESALE OR DESTRUCTION THEY SHOULD HAVE A REPLICA MADE FOR THEIR MUSEUM DISPLAY AND GIVE THE ORIGINAL TO THE TRIBE. THAT WAY EVERYONE CAN BE HAPPY AND AS SO MANY THINGS ON DISPLAY IN MUSEUMS ARE REPLICAS OF THE ORIGINAL WHICH IS IN STORAGE SOMEWHERE ELSE SAFER IT SHOULD NOT MATTER.

SOME OF THE OBJECTS ARE STILL MADE BY ACTUAL DESENDANTS OF THE TRIBE AND ARE ACTUALLY USED IN SOME CEREMONYS AND SOME ARE MADE TO BE SOLD AS HIGH END ART. THERE ARE ALSO OBJECTS WHICH I SUSPECT ARE MADE IN OTHER PLACES BY NON TRIBAL PEOPLE THAT APPEAR ON EBAY AT PRICES EVEN I CAN AFFORD AND THE QUALITY IS NOT BAD SO AT LEAST I HAVE A FEW EXAMPLES OF THE TYPE. ITS KIND OF LIKE BUYING A PLASTIC DINOSAUR TO DISPLAY WITH YOUR REAL FOSSIL TOOTH OR BONE BUT REAL DINO'S ARE HARD TO COME BY THESE DAYS

[Emanuel]

Hello,

Yanyeidi, the ritual involving Keet Gwalaa sounds a lot like the talismanic properties attributed to some Indonesian keris - almost word for word - I'm sure some members here will recognize this. It's fascinating how such similar beliefs evolved in such far appart places. I totally agree with Tim's view, I don't see why native American cultures couldn't have reached the same functional conclusions reached by Europeans.
Magnificent works, these! I will look up the first nations collection at the ROM.

Regards,
Emanuel

[David]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Yanyeidi, the ritual involving Keet Gwalaa sounds a lot like the talismanic properties attributed to some Indonesian keris - almost word for word - I'm sure some members here will recognize this. It's fascinating how such similar beliefs evolved in such far appart places.

Hi Emmanuel. I would very much appreciate if you would expand upon this and give actual examples of keris rituals which are the similar to the description for this Tlingit dagger.

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello,

...a lot like the talismanic properties attributed to some Indonesian keris...

Hi David!

I didn't write specifically keris rituals, but there were similar powers attributed to certain keris: one could kill a man simply by pointing the keris at them. I do not recall where I've read these specific words, but I can certainly look it up and post the reference.
Further comparison may be made via the need to keep the dagger hidden or covered - this is true for revered pusaka, no?

In both cases, the talismanic object is dagger-shaped, holds great power of life and death, and is extremely important to his/its owner/tribe.

I will read up on the Tlingit, but I wonder whether copper had a particular magical/powerful significance - in the same vein as the keris pamor I mean.

All the best,
Emanuel