Tatar sword - 'flyssa like'

Jens Nordlunde · 7th February 2007, 06:13 PM

Someone has been very kind to give me the book Bron I Uzbrojenie Tatarow – Tatar Arms and Armour, published in Warsaw in 1997. It is in Polish, and from the many illustrations I have chosen one to show you, it is no 67, and from the little I can read from the text, it says that it is 17th century. This would mean that if the flyssa was first seen in the 19th century the type of tip used would outdate the flyssa. Please comment to this.

Emanuel · 7th February 2007, 06:51 PM

Hi Jens!

In this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3781 Ariel presented these as 17th century Circassian swords - akin to the Tartar ordynka. The running theory relating these to the flyssa is that Circassian troups were part of the Ottoman forces stationed in Algeria. Through conflict and trade, the form of their sabres would have exerted influence upon Berber weapons, leading to the development of the flyssa.

I have my reservations towards this argument, mainly based upon the small amount of interaction between Ottomans and Berbers (specifically Kabyles) who maintained an independent kingdom at Annaba, but it's nonetheless convincing. At this point the most acceptable theory is indeed that Ottoman weapons - be they yataghan or Circassian sabres - are the main sources for the flyssa. My goal - in time - is to try to demonstrate that the flyssa developed independently. If that's not possible, then the present theory will hold

Emanuel

FenrisWolf · 7th February 2007, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Jens!

In this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3781 Ariel presented these as 17th century Circassian swords - akin to the Tartar ordynka. The running theory relating these to the flyssa is that Circassian troups were part of the Ottoman forces stationed in Algeria. Through conflict and trade, the form of their sabres would have exerted influence upon Berber weapons, leading to the development of the flyssa.

I have my reservations towards this argument, mainly based upon the small amount of interaction between Ottomans and Berbers (specifically Kabyles) who maintained an independent kingdom at Annaba, but it's nonetheless convincing. At this point the most acceptable theory is indeed that Ottoman weapons - be they yataghan or Circassian sabres - are the main sources for the flyssa. My goal - in time - is to try to demonstrate that the flyssa developed independently. If that's not possible, then the present theory will hold

Emanuel

I suppose the question will revolve around three questions:

1: What weapons were the Kayble people carrying prior to the adoption/creation of the flyssa?

2: What similarities are there between their old swords and the flyssa?

3: What other swords are being used in the same timeframe and region that the Kayble occupied during the chageover?

Once those three questions are clearly answered you should be able to draw clearer conclusions as to the evolution of the flyssa.

Emanuel · 7th February 2007, 08:08 PM

Haha, already asked them Fenris. But no answers yet...I do know that a wide range of saif's were used, as well as "Berber sword" types which consisted of rehilted imported blades mostly. Touaregs had their takouba's, and other Berbers had a range of daggers ranging from the shula to the khodme and koummiya. But I've asked what was the indigenous kabyle weapon prior to Ottoman arrival. That's why we need archaological records...no answer

In one of the thread in the "Big Flyssa..." I argued that since there are examples of imported Turkish yataghan fitted with native scabbards and fittings, those scabbards must have had a preceding weapon type. But no one seems to know about it or at least share it publicly...

7th February 2007, 06:13 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Tatar sword - 'flyssa like' Someone has been very kind to give me the book Bron I Uzbrojenie Tatarow – Tatar Arms and Armour, published in Warsaw in 1997. It is in Polish, and from the many illustrations I have chosen one to show you, it is no 67, and from the little I can read from the text, it says that it is 17th century. This would mean that if the flyssa was first seen in the 19th century the type of tip used would outdate the flyssa. Please comment to this. Attached Images

7th February 2007, 06:51 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jens! In this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3781 Ariel presented these as 17th century Circassian swords - akin to the Tartar ordynka. The running theory relating these to the flyssa is that Circassian troups were part of the Ottoman forces stationed in Algeria. Through conflict and trade, the form of their sabres would have exerted influence upon Berber weapons, leading to the development of the flyssa. I have my reservations towards this argument, mainly based upon the small amount of interaction between Ottomans and Berbers (specifically Kabyles) who maintained an independent kingdom at Annaba, but it's nonetheless convincing. At this point the most acceptable theory is indeed that Ottoman weapons - be they yataghan or Circassian sabres - are the main sources for the flyssa. My goal - in time - is to try to demonstrate that the flyssa developed independently. If that's not possible, then the present theory will hold Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 7th February 2007 at 07:07 PM.

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7th February 2007, 08:08 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Haha, already asked them Fenris. But no answers yet...I do know that a wide range of saif's were used, as well as "Berber sword" types which consisted of rehilted imported blades mostly. Touaregs had their takouba's, and other Berbers had a range of daggers ranging from the shula to the khodme and koummiya. But I've asked what was the indigenous kabyle weapon prior to Ottoman arrival. That's why we need archaological records...no answer In one of the thread in the "Big Flyssa..." I argued that since there are examples of imported Turkish yataghan fitted with native scabbards and fittings, those scabbards must have had a preceding weapon type. But no one seems to know about it or at least share it publicly...