HISTORY OF STEEL IN EASTERN ASIA EXHIBITION NOW ONLINE

[MABAGANI]

Points taken.
But hold the applause and consider what's at stake.
We've heard "Publish or Perish" but I doubt it meant giving less than full effort, which is what happened in this case and at a sacrifice by incorrectly writing a country's history and abusing its people in the process.
There is also a big difference between collectors who want to write but plagiarize and regurgitate incorrect information to tout themselves as experts vs. collectors who have taken the time and effort to research producing insights and new theories. The better museum works I've seen have gone through or were connected to academic institutions to complete articles and essays or had their own research department to verify and approve written material to safeguard against or minimize errors. This is another reason why projects are scheduled two years out, painstakingly to produce a worthwhile endeavor.
Given the short notice, the outcome and fallout in this case I would have again opted to hold off publishing and left the Philippines out. Most importantly, no one or country deserves to be trampled on for the good of an exhibit or "catalog".

"Love God with all your heart, always bear in mind that love of God is also love of Country, and thus, too, is love of ones fellowmen" -Andres Bonifacio, Katipunan Revolution founder

[VANDOO]

AS I DON'T KNOW ALL THE FACTS I AM NOT AWARE OF WHY THERE IS INFIGHTING OR WHAT HAPPENED TO CAUSE THE INITIAL ANGER BUT SENSE IT IS PERSONEL AND HAS BEEN BREWING SINCE BEFORE THE EXHIBIT AND THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM NO MATTER HOW ACCURATE THE EXHIBIT HAD BEEN.
THE EXHIBIT IS OVER AND THE MUSEUM DID CONSIDER THE PHILIPPINES IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO BE INCLUDED IN IT. IF THEY HAD NOT CONSIDRED THE PHILIPPINES TO BE IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO EVEN BE IN THE EXHIBIT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SNUB. THEY DID HAVE TO RUSH THE EXHIBIT WHICH HAS LED TO MORE MISTAKES THAN WOULD USUALLY OCCUR. THERE WERE ALSO PROBLEMS AT THE START AS SOME PEOPLE WHO INITIALLY WERE GOING TO HELP PROVIDE INFORMATION AND ITEMS DROPPED OUT FOR SOME REASON. THAT ALSO CONTRIBUTED TO THE MISTAKES MADE AND MAY BE PART OF THE REASON FOR THE ANGER WHICH MAKES THEM FEEL THE PHILIPPINES SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT ENTIRELY. BUT THEY WOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN MAD IF THEY HAD BEEN LEFT OUT ENTIRELY AS THEY ARE IN THE REGION AND DID PLAY A PART IN ITS HISTORY. I FEEL ITS UNFORTUNATE THERE ARE NEGATIVE FEELINGS AND ANGER OVER THIS EXHIBIT AND HOPE IT DOES NOT EFFECT THE CHANCE OF FUTURE EXHIBITS IN MACAU OR OTHER PLACES. I CAN'T JUDGE AS I DON'T KNOW HOW THE PHILIPPINES WERE INTENTIONALY TRAMPLED AND INSULTED . PERHAPS THE ONE WHO WROTE THE HISTORY SHOULD GET A POOR GRADE ON HIS DATES ON THE HISTORY TEST BUT THEY WOULD SURELY HAVE SCORED A LOT HIGHER ON THE TEST THAN I WOULD HAVE.

THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE OR PUT DOWN ITS JUST HOW I SEE IT NO OFFENSE IS MENT.

[Rivkin]

Gentlemen,

I apologize for saying something very controversial, but:
100 years ago a collector was typically a nobleman with a profound education, who upon feeling the approach of his demise would write most likely a single work that would encompass his lifelong activities.
Today a typical weapons collector is a nationalistic young fellow who after a few sessions of karate decides to bless the world with the description of his own country's martial culture. From this point on he can spent a few years doing a Ph.D. on the subject, where he will learn that he can not really learn much in academic environment since arms and armour is not a significant part of academic classes, and 99% of historian and art historians have their knowledge of the subject formed by movies and the BS published by Osprey. Another option is that he will write a book, which is typically a bizarre mixture of quotes from old classical texts, photographs of his friends' swords and his own research, the latter is typically beyound BS.

From this point I see no reason to popularize the knowledge or studies of arms and armour, but rather deepen it. As of today we lack the people who publish at least 1 article on the subject every 4 months or so, we lack any kind of educational opportunities extended to students at universities, which makes our community pretty much off-mainstream. As of now there are only very few people whom I would experts in some part of our field, the rest I would put together with me in the category of enthusiasts.

I obviously have not read the catalogue and I have not seen here anything that would be really negate the information given by the exhibition (it is kind of hard to give precise years of any undeclared war). If the catalogue is ridden with errors, it is indeed a grief thing. However we just recently had some other publication coming out which is ridden with errors, as obviously we had many times before... It is bad, but that is what enthusiasts do - they try and hopefully they learn on their mistakes. Should we stop the presses - no, I think we do not. We just should spend more time collaborating, proof reading, emailing the materials prior to the publication. And this is what I think to be even more important than promoting the knowledge of swords in the general public (in which I do not really believe) - deepen and professionalize our knowledge.

[Spunjer]

100 years ago a collector was typically a nobleman with a profound education, who upon feeling the approach of his demise would write most likely a single work that would encompass his lifelong activities.

yes, i picture a white mustachioed man wearing a red velvet robe smoking a pipe writing about his exploits in the savage lands of india and southeast asia, were dastardly natives are noted for their peculiar habit of stretching their lips, and yet produces the most interesting and unusual types of weapons yet unseen in the 'civilized' world. of how he crossed (i'm sure riding in the back of an elephant while the natives walked and carry all his belongings) and explored the vast jungles of dark africa.
yet a hundred years later with all the braggadocios of these exploits that has little to do with our shared enthusiasm, we are still bickering whether those palias (really trying to conform with english only post, but i'm sorry, doesn't know the english translation for this word) on the spine of the muslim pilipino's head chopper axes signifies talsimanic symbols or numbers of heads lopped off by that certain weapon. we have pictures of their great collections, and yet it doesn't help us explain certain properties of why the sword was this way and not that way, or what's the significance of those inlays. books, such as stone's, are profoundly flawed, though i consider him as a profoundly educated man. the bottom line is, our knowledge regarding our collection has markedly improved since the early days of those educated noblemen, and i believe this is due to being able to communicate in a level field with the same people who's ancestors were the one responsible in making the same type of weapons. but then again, maybe i'm being too nationalistic. i do know this: traveling to the philippines and being able to talk to the older folks certainly gave me a better perspective and whole new outlook on the weapons that i have in my collection.

Today a typical weapons collector is a nationalistic young fellow who after a few sessions of karate decides to bless the world with the description of his own country's martial culture. From this point on he can spent a few years doing a Ph.D. on the subject, where he will learn that he can not really learn much in academic environment since arms and armour is not a significant part of academic classes, and 99% of historian and art historians have their knowledge of the subject formed by movies and the BS published by Osprey. Another option is that he will write a book, which is typically a bizarre mixture of quotes from old classical texts, photographs of his friends' swords and his own research, the latter is typically beyound BS.

i have no idea that we share the same sentiment on cato's book. the ironic thing about it though is that to this day, the book is still regarded as the 'bible' to most muslim pilipino sword enthusiasts.

From this point I see no reason to popularize the knowledge or studies of arms and armour, but rather deepen it. As of today we lack the people who publish at least 1 article on the subject every 4 months or so, we lack any kind of educational opportunities extended to students at universities, which makes our community pretty much off-mainstream. As of now there are only very few people whom I would experts in some part of our field, the rest I would put together with me in the category of enthusiasts.

my take on this is, one's enthusiam can go a long way. if you're really interested to find out more about your collection, why wait for everybody else's contribution to be posted in this here forum (or any other forums) when you can do your own research? this forum can only take you so far. this is not a cheap hobby for sure, and you can't be on a government sustenence if you're planning on starting on collecting. my point is, for a few sacrifice, meaning not buying two or three swords for awhile, maybe one can use that fund to make that trek to your weapon's origin. to the muslim pilipino weapon collectors, a trip to mindanao and/or sulu is just a hopsctoch from manila, a mere $50.00. when you come back, maybe write an article about what you've learn.

(it is kind of hard to give precise years of any undeclared war)

• On August 14, 1898, 11,000 American ground troops were sent to occupy the Philippines

• Hostilities started on February 4, 1899 when an American soldier shot a Filipino soldier who was crossing a bridge into Filipino-occupied territory in San Juan del Monte, an incident historians now consider to be the start of the war.

-Wikipedia

[Rivkin]

Unfortunately I have no knowledge of Moro or SEA weaponry whatsoever, therefore my comments are purely general observations of the field. Yes, 100 years a lot of mistakes where made, but I am quite impressed by the contribution of the old school, made often in the absence of any acrheological or historical data.
I find speaking to the "carriers of the culture" to be a complete waste of time, unless this culture indeed used swords at most 50 years ago. 100 years typically separating the actual use of swords from modern "culture carriers" have lead to the replacement of knowledge by marketplace rumors. Archives, records of early travelers, old training manuals, archeology - these are the sources I respect. "Isa and Musa said" for me is basically nothing.

Concerning the dates of undeclared wars - typically there are always a few hundred of guerillas that continue to fight even after the time when large battles are over. Which brings in the question whether we qualify their actions as organized crime, terrorism or a continuation of the war ? In the latter case how large a number "guerillas" merits the extenstion of the war's timeline ?

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Concerning the dates of undeclared wars - typically there are always a few hundred of guerillas that continue to fight even after the time when large battles are over. Which brings in the question whether we qualify their actions as organized crime, terrorism or a continuation of the war ? In the latter case how large a number "guerillas" merits the extenstion of the war's timeline ?

I had this problem when researching the Dutch Atjeh war. While the dutch sources almost universally use the same date the Atjeh ( Aceh ) sources do not always agree with the Dutch sources

[Spunjer]

i can only speak in the field that i'm familiar with, therefore when you said:

I find speaking to the "carriers of the culture" to be a complete waste of time, unless this culture indeed used swords at most 50 years ago.

it made me chuckle. here's an old thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1114

with pics to boot, taken in the 60's (attaching one):

"Isa and Musa said" for me is basically nothing.

yep, i'm with you on that one. there are a whole lot of isas and the musas in the internet forums, therefore to gain knowledge, one must do his own research, like i mentioned earlier. Archives, records of early travelers, old training manuals, archeology - though it makes good references, it still has a lot of descripancies due to translation problem at that point in time. how many terms has been misunderstood due to not knowing the language, or just plain ignorance of the culture? what was interpreted as welcoming salute became interpreted as an agressive gesture?

Concerning the dates of undeclared wars - typically there are always a few hundred of guerillas that continue to fight even after the time when large battles are over. Which brings in the question whether we qualify their actions as organized crime, terrorism or a continuation of the war ? In the latter case how large a number "guerillas" merits the extenstion of the war's timeline ?

don't wanna get into details about history but since you brought this one up: this depends on what side you're on. one man's terrorist/insurgent is another man's freedom fighter.
Sakay, Felizardo, Montalan, de Vega, Malvar, etc. were all considered as ruthless terrorists by the americans at the turn of the century. you don't have to go far on this one. one can read this on hurley's novella. but i guarantee you they weren't considered as terrorists on that part of the world.
in regards to the last part: actually, i don't see this as part of the topic...

[MABAGANI]

Here's a well researched book by an American if anyone is interested in learning more about US history in the Philippines, "Muddy Glory, America's 'Indian Wars' in the Philippines 1899-1935" by Russel Roth 1981.

But back on topic, rather than taking wild guesses at what went wrong with the Philippine section of the exhibit, gather information from everyone involved. Why make excuses? All the authors agreed the work was rushed and had many mistakes, one quit the EEWRS over the fiasco. Contributors caught many errors in the descriptions and want them changed. Difficult to call this infighting rather than honestly wanting to correct errors that were already made. Including the Philippines with Eastern Asia might be okay for something like sporting events, but if we are writing about weaponry the nation fits better with Southeast Asia, "Malay" keris/kris culture. Keep in mind, the original exhibit was supposed to include all regions of the world but was reorganized when the Macao Museum could not meet its deadline for the East Asian Games 2005 event. Ironically, within the East Asian Games participating regions are the People's Republic of China, Guam, Hong Kong, China, Japan, Kazakhstan, DPR Korea (North Korea), Korea (South Korea), Macau, Mongolia and Chinese Taipei.