First Westerner to the Philippines?

MABAGANI · 14th December 2006, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

To keep this is perspective, this was 49 men with Magellan & 1500 with Lapu Lapu. This site http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/magellan.htm seems to have the most accepted version of the battle and some other interesting links. According to the Encyclopaedia of SEA Ethnography, the Tausug probably came to Sulu from north-eastern Mindanao, possibly because of Chinese trade, Yuan period (1280-1368)

If I recall, Magellan had christened Visayans who were enemies of Mactan and recruited them for the battle, they waited on the sidelines but when they saw the conquistadores losing they didn't engage. Do you really believe they thought they had a chance with 49 men?

Spunjer · 14th December 2006, 02:26 AM

Quote:

To keep this is perspective, this was 49 men with Magellan & 1500 with Lapu Lapu.

bill,

i always question pigafetta's account. kinda remind me of the time me and my friend got beaten up; but you shoulda seen the other guys. there were 50 of them. and they were all football players. oh yeah, they all had ball bats and chains...

seriously, how would you explain such incident to your higher ups, getting killed by a bunch of uncivilized savages, when spain is supposedly the most powerful nation in the world at that time. though we could never prove what really happen; i think it's safe to use some judgement and common sense on some of these so called "documented" claims..

Robert · 14th December 2006, 03:07 AM

Gentlemen,
History like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Arguments like this are tantamount to arguing religion or politics, no one wins. Just my HO.

Robert

Bill · 14th December 2006, 03:38 AM

Never said he was smart, although history does say he was a seasoned warrior. Some of the things the Spanish conquistador's did though seems to defy odds. Pizarro, with 150 men attacked 6000 & is said to have killed 4000 Inca in the battle of Cajamarca, although most were unarmed and unprepared for battle. Even after Custer had devided the 7th Calvery into 3 groups, was greatly out numbered, & out weaponed; I've read critics that claim Custer still should have prevailed, but for bad command decissions. It isn't the ability the warrior as much as the discipline in battle. Magellan is claimed to not only have warned Lapo Lapo, but to have waited until Lapo Lapo could gather more men. It would seem that Magellan lost the discipline of his men early in the battle, but still only lost 8 men. I'm sure you don't have to read very far into any history book to find errors or at least enter into debate on it's validity.

MABAGANI · 14th December 2006, 05:48 AM

Some of Magellan's native recruits stayed behind to help the retreat. What probably saved them from a hunt and annihilation was the rest of the spectators sitting off the coast.
Ever visit the site of the battle? I was there about ten years ago.

Mark · 14th December 2006, 03:39 PM

This "debate" is digressing into a sand box argument. We are well-past discussing the facts of the arrival of Magellan, and whether or not he was the first European. We are also well off any discussion of the weapons involved. Enough with the bickering over irrelevant issues, or I'm going to start suspending people.

MABAGANI · 14th December 2006, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

This "debate" is digressing into a sand box argument. We are well-past discussing the facts of the arrival of Magellan, and whether or not he was the first European. We are also well off any discussion of the weapons involved. Enough with the bickering over irrelevant issues, or I'm going to start suspending people.

?In the original post before splitting I tried to bring the discussion back about the relevance of ethnographic weaponry and Lapu Lapu vs. Magellan's landing in the HOS, (exploration) which was way off topic in the EEWRS forum too, in the first place. Most made the switch towards weaponry and the battle but some stayed with discussing exploration. Why would exchanging ideas about a battle with ethnographic weaponry warrant a suspension?

Battara · 17th December 2006, 08:05 PM

HOS?

Bill · 14th December 2006, 03:40 PM

Been to Cebu City, but by land, crossing from Negros. Tried to get there but the people I was with, had no interest. Have seen how long stretchs of sandy beach quickly turn to jagged rocks and back to sandy beachs, assume it has to do with ancient volcanos.

14th December 2006, 03:39 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Moderation alert This "debate" is digressing into a sand box argument. We are well-past discussing the facts of the arrival of Magellan, and whether or not he was the first European. We are also well off any discussion of the weapons involved. Enough with the bickering over irrelevant issues, or I'm going to start suspending people.

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14th December 2006, 03:07 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gentlemen, History like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Arguments like this are tantamount to arguing religion or politics, no one wins. Just my HO. Robert

14th December 2006, 03:38 AM	#4
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Never said he was smart, although history does say he was a seasoned warrior. Some of the things the Spanish conquistador's did though seems to defy odds. Pizarro, with 150 men attacked 6000 & is said to have killed 4000 Inca in the battle of Cajamarca, although most were unarmed and unprepared for battle. Even after Custer had devided the 7th Calvery into 3 groups, was greatly out numbered, & out weaponed; I've read critics that claim Custer still should have prevailed, but for bad command decissions. It isn't the ability the warrior as much as the discipline in battle. Magellan is claimed to not only have warned Lapo Lapo, but to have waited until Lapo Lapo could gather more men. It would seem that Magellan lost the discipline of his men early in the battle, but still only lost 8 men. I'm sure you don't have to read very far into any history book to find errors or at least enter into debate on it's validity.

14th December 2006, 05:48 AM	#5
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Some of Magellan's native recruits stayed behind to help the retreat. What probably saved them from a hunt and annihilation was the rest of the spectators sitting off the coast. Ever visit the site of the battle? I was there about ten years ago.

17th December 2006, 08:05 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	HOS?

14th December 2006, 03:40 PM	#9
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Been to Cebu City, but by land, crossing from Negros. Tried to get there but the people I was with, had no interest. Have seen how long stretchs of sandy beach quickly turn to jagged rocks and back to sandy beachs, assume it has to do with ancient volcanos.