Jezail rifle. Unusual version ?

fernando · 1st December 2006, 06:29 PM

Thank you so much, Philip
I wouldn't dare to dismount this piece, as its remounting would be a problem ... barrel bands, stock ( repaired ) fore end, and so.
I only risked to dismount the lockplate and, in that visible part of the barrel, there looks to be no barrel twist or any other texture.
Maybe Ward can tell something about this, as its barrel is right the same and certainly in a better condition, considering the picture of its rifled bore.
I register your info on the lock shape, copied from the British pattern. But what intrigues me, is that extra steel "tab" welded to the barrel, right in front of the percussion bolster. Not certainly a reinforcement or, at least, i wouldn't see the reason, by myself.
I will be digesting all your other precious info.
Kind regards
fernando

Philip · 2nd December 2006, 06:09 AM

Fernando,
I don't know what the functional purpose is for the elongated steel "tab" attached to the barrel ahead of the bolster. Ward's specimen has something similar. This is not a usual feature on percussion musket/rifle barrels from Europe. Looking at pictures of Sind guns fitted with flint- or matchlocks, I see no similar feature.

In Elgood's FIREARMS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD, cited above, the photo of 3 guns on p 169 contains an example (the middle one, a matchlock) with a double sling swivel just as yours has. I am trying to figure out the purpose of this; a single one would seem to be perfectly adequate, unless one of the loops was for the attachment of a chain holding the touchhole pricker (which is usually housed in a conical metal receptacle attached to the right side of the stock ahead of the trigger).

The Double D · 2nd December 2006, 11:13 AM

I must disagree with a couple of points here. It very unlikely this is a damascus barrel...generally round barrels are damascus, octagon were not. That's not an "always" that's a "ususally" There are exceptions I suppose but a damascus octagon barrel is uncommon.

The Lock is not the P53 Pattern lock. The P53 style hammer is heavier and the front of the lock plate is rounded.

This lock looks like an indigenous made copy of an English Bar lock from mid 19th century. The lock pattern being mid 19th Century. I'm not saying this rifle is 19th century.

Odd number rifling is also normally associated with English patterns. But again that is not an always.

ward · 2nd December 2006, 02:17 PM

The barrel of my sind rifle is not watered and it sounds like fernando's rifle is not. I believe both barrels are from the same workshop. I beleive both locks are locally made. I do not think they are retrofits. but originally percusion.

fernando · 2nd December 2006, 04:04 PM

Hi Philip
I have noticed that Ward's rifle also has the "tab" beyond the bolster, only that in its case the tab looks embodied with the bolster, like one only set, and mine looks like a loose piece, welded separately. Apparently this tab thing is a atandard procedure, and not an isolated option. Not to exclude that its utility wasn't exterior reinforcing, but of interior use . Its swelled bottom doesn't end with a flat edge, but in "v" grooved profile along its length ... at least in my specimen.
Its amazing, this double swivel hook near the trigger guard. Although they have different sizes, both are too wide to hold things like chains. Could they be a buckling system to adjust and stop the shoulder belt ?
Thank you Double D
Searching the Web after your coments, i see closest similarity between this and the British "two screw bar lock" ... both plate and mechanism. Naturally an indigenous version. Eventually my specimen is more crude made than Ward's, specially the hammer.

fernando · 2nd December 2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

The barrel of my sind rifle is not watered and it sounds like fernando's rifle is not. I believe both barrels are from the same workshop. I beleive both locks are locally made. I do not think they are retrofits. but originally percusion.

Hi Ward
I think that Philip's sugestion was that it was the barrel that was modifyed from flint to percussion ... the lock being the actual percussion one.
fernando

ward · 2nd December 2006, 05:34 PM

I can see a changeover from matchlock to percussian. Usually flintlock to percussian conversians are just modified lockplates and hammers.

fernando · 2nd December 2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I can see a changeover from matchlock to percussian. Usually flintlock to percussian conversians are just modified lockplates and hammers.

Well, actually Philip didn't say altered from flint to percussion, but altered do percussion.

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1st December 2006, 06:29 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much, Philip I wouldn't dare to dismount this piece, as its remounting would be a problem ... barrel bands, stock ( repaired ) fore end, and so. I only risked to dismount the lockplate and, in that visible part of the barrel, there looks to be no barrel twist or any other texture. Maybe Ward can tell something about this, as its barrel is right the same and certainly in a better condition, considering the picture of its rifled bore. I register your info on the lock shape, copied from the British pattern. But what intrigues me, is that extra steel "tab" welded to the barrel, right in front of the percussion bolster. Not certainly a reinforcement or, at least, i wouldn't see the reason, by myself. I will be digesting all your other precious info. Kind regards fernando

2nd December 2006, 06:09 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Fernando, I don't know what the functional purpose is for the elongated steel "tab" attached to the barrel ahead of the bolster. Ward's specimen has something similar. This is not a usual feature on percussion musket/rifle barrels from Europe. Looking at pictures of Sind guns fitted with flint- or matchlocks, I see no similar feature. In Elgood's FIREARMS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD, cited above, the photo of 3 guns on p 169 contains an example (the middle one, a matchlock) with a double sling swivel just as yours has. I am trying to figure out the purpose of this; a single one would seem to be perfectly adequate, unless one of the loops was for the attachment of a chain holding the touchhole pricker (which is usually housed in a conical metal receptacle attached to the right side of the stock ahead of the trigger).

2nd December 2006, 11:13 AM	#3
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	I must disagree with a couple of points here. It very unlikely this is a damascus barrel...generally round barrels are damascus, octagon were not. That's not an "always" that's a "ususally" There are exceptions I suppose but a damascus octagon barrel is uncommon. The Lock is not the P53 Pattern lock. The P53 style hammer is heavier and the front of the lock plate is rounded. This lock looks like an indigenous made copy of an English Bar lock from mid 19th century. The lock pattern being mid 19th Century. I'm not saying this rifle is 19th century. Odd number rifling is also normally associated with English patterns. But again that is not an always.

2nd December 2006, 02:17 PM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The barrel of my sind rifle is not watered and it sounds like fernando's rifle is not. I believe both barrels are from the same workshop. I beleive both locks are locally made. I do not think they are retrofits. but originally percusion.

2nd December 2006, 04:04 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Philip I have noticed that Ward's rifle also has the "tab" beyond the bolster, only that in its case the tab looks embodied with the bolster, like one only set, and mine looks like a loose piece, welded separately. Apparently this tab thing is a atandard procedure, and not an isolated option. Not to exclude that its utility wasn't exterior reinforcing, but of interior use . Its swelled bottom doesn't end with a flat edge, but in "v" grooved profile along its length ... at least in my specimen. Its amazing, this double swivel hook near the trigger guard. Although they have different sizes, both are too wide to hold things like chains. Could they be a buckling system to adjust and stop the shoulder belt ? Thank you Double D Searching the Web after your coments, i see closest similarity between this and the British "two screw bar lock" ... both plate and mechanism. Naturally an indigenous version. Eventually my specimen is more crude made than Ward's, specially the hammer.

2nd December 2006, 05:34 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I can see a changeover from matchlock to percussian. Usually flintlock to percussian conversians are just modified lockplates and hammers.