Kirpans not allowed

[Sikh_soldier]

being a sikh i belive it is my duty to reply to the above posts.

please do not compare such religious practices such as sharia islam with sikhism which is a peaceful equality based religion.
the kirpan means selfless service and righteousness, i.e only to be used in times to protect ones honour (usually anothers) such as a women being attacked etc. not for a pub brawl might i add.

not all sikhs wear kirpans only baptised ones, suggesting that they meditate for atleast 3 hours in the morning ridding one of such animal feelings of anger.
regarding the knife culture in europe (stabbings) i implore those who feel otherwise how many incidents where a sikh kirpan was used (illegally or otherwise) i am sure they are more incidents of snooker chalks being used

Also regarding "moderation in india" this is a very strange assertion giving india's size sikhs only make less than 3% of the population there so to categorize and make an assumption is unfair

i would like to remind my fellow enthusiasts that sikhs deserve their religious allowances especially in europe "With only voluntary recruitment into the army, young Sikh men helped to swell the Indian army from 189,000 at the start of the war to over 2.5 million at the end of the war." over 200 hundred thousand were injure with many killed in world wars of europe which sikhs voluntarily participated in due to injustice.

i respect all your opinions, my sincere apologies for any offences taken,

[Sikh_soldier]

Pictures of sikhs in europe
a sikh with a captured NAZI flag

[Emanuel]

Hello _Soldier,

Here in Canada, Sikh men are also allowed to wear the kirpan as a religious symbol. I myself have been around such persons, fully conscious of the reason for the kirpan being worn, and aware that it is not intended to do harm.

However, in most - if not all - western nations, the wear of a knife or any weapon is distinctly threatening and perhaps even offensive unless condoned by occupation requiring weapons (say police or army). It doesn't matter that there haven't been any incidents involving Sikh using the kirpan. It only matters that it is a knife-like object being worn/exhibited in public. I'm afarid that until the kirpan and its wear maintain any resemblance to that of a knife, people will feel threatened by it. I think a Tibetan phurpa would cause just as much of a stir, as long as it has some semblance of a blade.

While the religious rights of immigrant populations must be respected, the social norms of the host country must also be upheld. The Sikh man in question in this thread - and perhaps other like him - should understand the court's rulling not as an attack against his faith, and he should understand the reasons for it and accept the social limits imposed by Denmark. I believe that host nation and immigrant group should work to reach a common ground: perhaps change the look of the kirpan enough that it is not identified as a potential weapon with an usable blade, while educating people about its cultural meaning.

The question of what runaway governments are doing to collectors through idiotic laws is another matter, and has been discussed here before ...unfortunately. The belief that people will stop being violent the moment all blades have disappeared is beyond me...it's a total farce.

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi Emanuel,

What a well written objective post,
the sikh kirpan does indeed comprise of a usable blade (dagger for those that do not know) its name kirpan is separated into two words kirpa (selfless service) and aan (honour it is not entirley ceremonial.
however, sikhs have peacefully co-inhabited europe for so many years i believe it is unfair to impose such limitations all of a sudden.

sikhism is a philosophy rather than a religion and for a baptised sikh the kirpan is an extension of his/her arm. Strange that a religious pious man would scare one more than a police officer with a gun (airports etc)

the closest analogy of sikhs i can think of are the samurai.

We only fear that of which we do not know i believe education is the key

[Emanuel]

Hi Soldier,

I understand your analogy, but the fact remains that a samurai would not be allowed down the street with his swords.

I agree that the fear is not rational. Right now western governments seem to be promoting all kinds of fears in their populations for the sake of gaining more control over them. Have a look at this discussion: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Knife+Amnesty

Ideally, the host society would indeed learn about the customs of the immigrant group, and the population would learn that a Sikh man wearing his kirpan in public is safe and acceptable. Unfortunately, this brings the issue of precedent: other groups with different motives will argue that they should be given the same right and should be allowed to carry weapons publicly. In the case of an incident, the trouble of uncovering the truth behind one's motive in using the knife would be too much. Thus I think, some governments legitimately outlaw the wear of weapons, especially in a society that already has a specific "caste" with the responsibility of protecting society, namely the police. I do not want to sound offensive here, but perhaps - just perhaps mind you - in western society the wear of the kirpan is simply obsolete, regardless of the wearer's way of life.

This went on quite a bit but I just wanted to give you a view possibly held by some people in the west.
Since the issue of education came up, I will try to go to the Gurdwara in my neighbourhood and ask some more questions.

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Sikh_soldier]

Thanks again Emanuel,

very informative and reasoned sumamry. one last thing to conclude i promise

sikhs have overcome persecution one will never (even myself) be able to imagine, most severe the mughals who tried to wipe out the race alltogether.
To the limit of executing two of our sikh Guru's (religious messengers/guides/prophets)

sikhs survived extinction on numerous occasions with valour with their heritage,customs and culture intact.

For Sikhs, the kirpan and in fact arms in general are equal to the holy scriptures and most revered (worthy of worship) mostly as it can take life and give life (protect/save)

thanks emanuel i will say nothing more on the subject and try to please the other members and moderators with some cool pics.
if you have any questions Emanuel (or anyone) on Sikhism please do not hesitate to ask and i will do my best.(criticism is welcome too)

[Emanuel]

Hi _Soldier,

Fair enough, and thanks for the pictures, I love tulwars. Since we're talking about the kirpan, what do old/original examples look like? The blade is essentially a khanjar, but how different or similar are the old ones from the present ones?
Here in Canada, I've seen this variety:

I'll contact you shortly...
Regards,
Emanuel