Interesting Flyssa

[Lew]

It seems that the rolling scroll motif is a common design on flyssa swords. I still feel that the longer straighter flyssa were more of a calvary sword while the shorter ones like the first one shown was more of a hack and slash weapon. The one that I have posted has a 3ft blade and is quiet unwieldy to be used in close quarter fighting.

Lew

[ham]

Gentlemen,

I think Jim has got the picture quite accurately.
There is no specific reference indicating that the flyssa developed from the yatagan-- it has been said more than once that Islamic/ethnic/tribal etc. arms are interesting for the very fact that they require cogitation to sort out, this is what makes them interesting. I do believe the connection is obvious, however. A quick review of Ottoman provinces in North Africa will reveal a strong and enduring Turkish presence, adding a cultural aspect to the formal evidence where flyssas are concerned.

3 additional points:

1) Note that yatagans virtually never have a backedge, while flyssas virtually always do.

2) Note that the chiselled motifs on one side of Manolo's sword are Turkic, they ultimately derive from Byzantine motifs-- they are not quite the same scrolls one finds on flyssas. These descend from a different motif.

3) For a yatagan to appear with a scabbard which is typically that of a flyssa simply suggests that it saw use in a region where flyssas were mounted. We certainly see this with every other bladeform, particularly kindjals and shamshirs.

Ham

[Jim McDougall]

Lew,
Nicely done!! I stand corrected on the scroll motif, and was focusing on the typical blade decoration, I had not noticed those scrolls on the brasswork of the hilts.
The close similarity of this weapon to the straight blade yataghans noted by Ham, and obviously the inevitable variant forms of the traditional flyssa do present a puzzle. I am inclined to rethink the likelihood that this may indeed be an Ottoman weapon from the Maghreb littoral, and plausibly may reflect
a variant or latter example of earlier Ottoman swords present there.

The straight blade form of yataghan with deep bellied blade is known in Turkey as c.1500 with one of the best provenanced examples shown as from Turkish workshops of Bayazid II ("The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent", Intl Cult.Corp.of Australia, 2000, p.64 #50). The profile of the blade is remarkably like that of the flyssa, with of course the familiar collar at the base of the blade.
Apparantly, a very similar sword, with the Ottoman 'karabela' type hilt and the blade with extremely slight curve in back, and the same deep belly profile, again remarkably as those of the flyssa, is shown as from Algerian regions dated 1746. This is shown in "Ethnographic Objects in the Royal Danish Kunsthammer 1650-1800" , National Museet, Copenhagen, 1980, p.84, EMb60a ..and is described as a diplomatic gift to Denmark in 1746, Algiers, from the Ottomans there.
It is stated in Tarussuk & Blair (1979) that an envoy of King Ferdinand VII of Spain was presented a flyssa in 1827, and that the Iflisen tribe of Kabyles had been producing these for some time.

While it does seem unusual that a distinct weapon form can remain indiginous and uninfluenced by other weapon forms without noticeable deviation, it is known in a number of ethnographic circumstances. For example, the takouba of the Tuaregs has always retained its distinct characteristics, and has coexisted in closely congruent regions and tribal groups with the Sudanese kaskara. While both simple crossguarded broadswords, they cannot be confused with one another. The tulwar of India seems to have maintained its presence within the confines of the subcontinent, and to have been used concurrently with swords such as the khanda, and often by the same warrior groups.

It seems that the straight blade 'yataghan' of early Ottoman form was present in the Maghreb at least during the 18th century, and that native armourers, especially those serving the Ottomans, would have produced similar swords. These likely were the influence of those produced by the Iflisen, and it would be great if prototype examples showing such transitional development could be seen.

Best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

Jim,
As a matter of fact, I never noticed that the Flyssa's pommel looks just like Karabela's!
If this is not a chancy fluke, then it is an argument in favour of Turkish, rather than Iranian, origin of Karabela's "eagle's head" pommel.
Indeed, rather than Iraqi Karbala, we may revisit a place neas Izmir, called Karabel.
We tried to stay away from the Black Sea Yataghan mine field ( Laz Bicagi), and I can hear a collective groan. But then (just bear with me, I am just a piano player!), there is a rather marked similarity in the "ricasso" part of the blade between Flyssa and BSY. Also, if we take a Flyssa and bend it along the long axis, we end up with a..... And I am not talking about a similarity between the tangs....
Once again, I am raiding Artzi's site
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1143
vs.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1003

BSY is like a bad habit: always comes back!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ariel,
Actually the trilobate 'karabela' type pommel I noted was on an Ottoman sword from the Maghreb, not on the typically seen flyssa, which also carries an unidentifiable zoomorphic pommel often suspected to be eagle or some significant bird. Interestingly the hilt noted is very much like certain Arabian saif of 18th c.as shown in Elgood, in the trilobed pommel, again much like karabelas. It seems generally held that the karabela hilt, though the term etymology is uncertain as is its origin, was well known in the Ottoman sphere.

The similarities between the Black Sea yataghan and the flyssa are clearly known and as I had noted, I feel that the significant presence of tribesmen from the regions established for BSY may account for such influences. This is especially noted in the needle type point, similar to Tatar sabres such as the Polish examples known as 'ordynka'. Many of these were produced in Armenian shops in Lvov, and it is interesting that the original accounts of the BSY, as early as Jacobsen (1941) and subsequently Siefert (1962) termed these recurved sabres Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. The tribesmen from Transcaucasian regions (another term applied to the BSY) that entered Ottoman forces in the Maghreb may have carried such weapons with them to these regions.
Naturally this is speculation, but while geographically distant, such diffusion within the Ottoman sphere seems entirely plausible.

I knew it would be hard to avoid dragging out the old BSY syndrome, but it really does seem pertinant here. As I noted before, your work in establishing the BSY as Laz Bicagi was great! and in my opinion pretty much closed the book on the mystery, despite the steadfast opposition which still disagrees.

It would seem that the rule of Occams 'yataghan' should apply!!

All the best,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Jim and Ham, thanks for the references, I will look them up.
Some interesting questions reguarding the adaptation of the Ottoman yataghan (BSY or regular kind) to the flyssa form are why was it done? Why straighten the blade and add a back edge? If a cavalry weapon, why not simply keep the nimcha and the other known berber sword form with the peculiar tip.

Further, where did the zoomorphic pommel as it looks on refined flyssa come from? Its specific form is not seen on other swords, even if the lobed shaped has Ottoman precedents. My point is that it must have had a period of development independent of Ottoman examples.

If the Iflissen and other tribes had a lucrative industry producing these swords, why import or keep mimicking yataghan blades?
Too many unanswered questions in my mind to convince me fully but if the decorations are Turkic as Ham says, then the example I posted really gives me pause to reconsider. The article by Lacoste-Dujardin is the only published material I could find dedicated to these swords...the literature on them really ought to be updated.

These question really should be debated over a bottle of good liquor as Ariel so often suggests would make for some good times.
Emanuel

[katana]

Hi Emanuel,
found this web page....in French....Babel-Fish translation not too good so I've linked to the French page.....some interesting images at the base of the page....

http://lunis1.free.fr/article.php3?id_article=7

Regards David

[Emanuel]

Hi David,
Thanks a lot the link, the whole site is very informative on the Kabyles, and the French is not a problem. I already acquired the treatise by Camille Lacoste-Desjardins "Sabres Kabyles". It is the most comprehensive and complete work on so subject that I could find. Quite extensive, and it is the principle source for the website you linked, and that of Pierre-Louis Cavaillé: http://blade.japet.com/flissa1.htm

I've been studying it for a while, and it could do with some updating. One area requiring further research revolves around an ancient stele depicting a warrior with a flyssa-like weapon in hand. I am currently looking through archaeological reports from diggs in Algeria, hoping to find some remains of pre-1800 Kabyle weapons. No luck yet, but there is a lot of info which leads me to continue questioning some of the assumptions presently held about the flyssa and the Kabyles.

If you're interested, I could provide you with a copy of it. It is in French though and you'd have to spend a lot of time with translator bots.

In the future I plan to invest a lot more time into this research and perhaps publish some modest work of my own stay tuned my friend

All the best,
Emanuel