What are these? Indonesian?

Bill M · 10th October 2006, 11:45 AM

Mini tombaks?
Cockspurs?
Letter openers?

Comments?

VVV · 10th October 2006, 01:05 PM

Looks like miniature Tombak.
Haven't seen them that small before.

Michael

Marcokeris · 10th October 2006, 01:39 PM

They are two tombaks . Sometimes small tombaks are put by indonesian people inside walking stik.

Bill M · 10th October 2006, 02:08 PM

Whatever they are, what do you think about the pamor? Quality?

Personally I don't like the carving on the dress. I may mount them in a shadow box frame with the smooth side of the dress out.

------------------------

Just got a private email from a man who really knows Indonesian pieces. They are not tombaks according to him. They are more rare, however.

Let's see what other people think.

Any other opinions?

VVV · 10th October 2006, 02:35 PM

"Just got a private email from a man who really knows Indonesian pieces."

Thanks Bill!

Michael

Marcokeris · 10th October 2006, 03:46 PM

About quality of dress is better to say nothing.
Tombaks seems rather new. One pamor is ganggeng kanyut (on the left), the other seems bendo segodo.

Bill M · 10th October 2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

About quality of dress is better to say nothing.
Tombaks seems rather new. One pamor is ganggeng kanyut (on the left), the other seems bendo segodo.

Thank you for your info.

I agree about the dress. The best display would be the pieces alone. Second best mounting where the carving is on the inside and out of sight!.

I think that the Javanese and worse yet,, the Madurese (is that a word?) make some awful tourist dress. "Dripping" is a good word here.

According to a very good source who has asked me not to mention his name, these are Bedor --- arrowheads.

Maybe I could get them mounted in arrow shafts. Personally I agree that they may be newer. Always hard to know. I like the quality and the uniqueness. Also nice staining work.

Pusaka · 10th October 2006, 08:57 PM

I thought they were arrow heads too, but ornamental arrow heads. Why would you spend so much time and effort in making arrow heads only to shoot them and it’s gone?

Henk · 10th October 2006, 10:08 PM

I own two oldies of the same size. I did bought them as tombak. The dress is also old. If i look at your examples they look rather new with a good pamor.

The dress......... modern maduran dress. I also would prefer a less fancy dress.

Would like to know what the opinion is of the knowledgeable gentleman about these tombaks.

Would like to learn.

Marcokeris · 16th October 2006, 04:04 PM

An exemple of Yogya walking stick

Marcokeris · 16th October 2006, 04:29 PM

Sorry!

Boedhi Adhitya · 18th October 2006, 07:19 AM

Hai Bill,

What you've got are a special kind of tombak what so called as 'menur(?)'. I'm not quite sure about the name. The menur usually mounted on the top of umbrellas (not that ordinary umbrellas, but the one which used by Javanese noblemen) or on the center of the shield. Javanese shield usually covered with many spikes, but the bigger ones with pamor, the menur, placed on the center.

The bedor is smaller than menur. It was really used on the war, but not to shot every enemies you encounter, certainly. You used the 'holy bedor' only at whom you consider as your 'invincible/invulnerable' enemy.

The blade Javanese put on the 'walking stick' (called teken or tlempak) are ordinary tombak, but they choose the smaller one.

Another very rare weapon is 'candrasa'. It was used as 'kancing gelung' or hairpin, something to keep your hair spun tight. (in the old days, almost every men had long hair). When enemy comes, candrasa used by throwing it toward the enemy.

As you see, the javanese ancestor was very resourceful

Bill M · 18th October 2006, 07:24 AM

This is interesting!

How long are the bedor?

How long are the menur?

Thank you for your reply.

Boedhi Adhitya · 18th October 2006, 07:58 AM

The menur's length would be roughly as long as your index finger or a little bit longer (or shorter, on your finger

). the bedor's length about 1/2 - 3/4 lenght of menur. Please remind that Javanese's bows are not as long/big as longbow. It's length are rougly 1 m only. On traditional archery competition, which still held until today in Jogjakarta Court, the competitor shoot the arrow in sitting position on the ground (duduk sila).
Please remember, I have never take any actual measurement on menur, bedor, the bow, or even the keris. all just 'roughtly', relying on my memory (which usually corrupted

) and my hand/finger which I usually use to take measurement

best regards,

boedhi adhitya

Bill M · 18th October 2006, 08:20 AM

This is good info. I have seen the parasols / umbrellas you mention.

Blade length on these is about 3.5 inches or 8.9 cm.

How long are your fingers?

10th October 2006, 11:45 AM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	What are these? Indonesian? Mini tombaks? Cockspurs? Letter openers? Comments? Attached Images

16th October 2006, 04:29 PM	#11
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Sorry! Attached Images

18th October 2006, 07:19 AM	#12
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Hai Bill, What you've got are a special kind of tombak what so called as 'menur(?)'. I'm not quite sure about the name. The menur usually mounted on the top of umbrellas (not that ordinary umbrellas, but the one which used by Javanese noblemen) or on the center of the shield. Javanese shield usually covered with many spikes, but the bigger ones with pamor, the menur, placed on the center. The bedor is smaller than menur. It was really used on the war, but not to shot every enemies you encounter, certainly. You used the 'holy bedor' only at whom you consider as your 'invincible/invulnerable' enemy. The blade Javanese put on the 'walking stick' (called teken or tlempak) are ordinary tombak, but they choose the smaller one. Another very rare weapon is 'candrasa'. It was used as 'kancing gelung' or hairpin, something to keep your hair spun tight. (in the old days, almost every men had long hair). When enemy comes, candrasa used by throwing it toward the enemy. As you see, the javanese ancestor was very resourceful Last edited by Boedhi Adhitya; 18th October 2006 at 07:29 AM.

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10th October 2006, 01:05 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Looks like miniature Tombak. Haven't seen them that small before. Michael

10th October 2006, 01:39 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	They are two tombaks . Sometimes small tombaks are put by indonesian people inside walking stik.

10th October 2006, 02:08 PM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Whatever they are, what do you think about the pamor? Quality? Personally I don't like the carving on the dress. I may mount them in a shadow box frame with the smooth side of the dress out. ------------------------ Just got a private email from a man who really knows Indonesian pieces. They are not tombaks according to him. They are more rare, however. Let's see what other people think. Any other opinions?

10th October 2006, 02:35 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	"Just got a private email from a man who really knows Indonesian pieces." Thanks Bill! Michael

10th October 2006, 03:46 PM	#6
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	About quality of dress is better to say nothing. Tombaks seems rather new. One pamor is ganggeng kanyut (on the left), the other seems bendo segodo.

10th October 2006, 08:57 PM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I thought they were arrow heads too, but ornamental arrow heads. Why would you spend so much time and effort in making arrow heads only to shoot them and it’s gone?

10th October 2006, 10:08 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I own two oldies of the same size. I did bought them as tombak. The dress is also old. If i look at your examples they look rather new with a good pamor. The dress......... modern maduran dress. I also would prefer a less fancy dress. Would like to know what the opinion is of the knowledgeable gentleman about these tombaks. Would like to learn.

16th October 2006, 04:04 PM	#10
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	An exemple of Yogya walking stick

18th October 2006, 07:24 AM	#13
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	This is interesting! How long are the bedor? How long are the menur? Thank you for your reply.

18th October 2006, 07:58 AM	#14
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	The menur's length would be roughly as long as your index finger or a little bit longer (or shorter, on your finger ). the bedor's length about 1/2 - 3/4 lenght of menur. Please remind that Javanese's bows are not as long/big as longbow. It's length are rougly 1 m only. On traditional archery competition, which still held until today in Jogjakarta Court, the competitor shoot the arrow in sitting position on the ground (duduk sila). Please remember, I have never take any actual measurement on menur, bedor, the bow, or even the keris. all just 'roughtly', relying on my memory (which usually corrupted ) and my hand/finger which I usually use to take measurement best regards, boedhi adhitya

18th October 2006, 08:20 AM	#15
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	This is good info. I have seen the parasols / umbrellas you mention. Blade length on these is about 3.5 inches or 8.9 cm. How long are your fingers?