Unusual sword

[Congoblades]

Hi,
I found this unusual sword in an old collection weapons from Congo, it doesn't look african to me, ...I have no idee. It have some figures on both sides of the blade, one figure looks greek to me

Total lenght: 95 cm

Sombody any idee of the origin and age?

[Rick]

Looks like European markings.
Could be an old flamboyant rapier blade .

[wolviex]

Very nice and unusual find!
Etchings on the blade are from the 2nd half of the 18th century. Etched lady is Diane - in Roman mitology godness of forest and animals, always depicted as hunting lady. I can't recognize the second person on the other side of the blade under the sun - the picture is fainted.
The blade is European for sure, probably even earlier. Open-work - those holes on the blade, reminds me some of the 17th or even 16th century blades, but I think the first conjecture will be closer to the truth.
I believe the others will tell you more about it.

Regards

[fernando]

once converted into a concealed weapon, like a sword cane or stick, now missing the blade cover part ?

[Rick]

I see drums and flags at the ricasso .
How about doing a rubbing of the marks ?
I think you're correct with an earlier age Michael; if this is indeed a rapier blade the length would be in keeping with that which was popular in the mid to late 16th, early 17th century . The thing that puzzles me is the half waved half straight form .

[katana]

Usually with straight blades,the opponent's blade would tend to 'slide' down it... when parrying a strike (or when your strike is parried) Seeing that there is no guard to prevent the hand being struck, perhaps the 'waves' tended to prevent this. Especially if this blade is from a sword stick...... which generally do not have any form of guard.

[Tim Simmons]

This is a 16th century hunting Estoc from the Wallace collection. I think we may well be looking at the genuine article. The goddess of the hunt would seem quite appropriate. Rather a special blade to have. If it were mine I would take the handle off. I would then display it proudly. Although I think it is a wonderful thing, I am not sure wether it would set an auction alight.

[wolviex]

Hi Tim!
It is a clue, no doubt. Thought blade discussed here is of different construction of course - that one from Wallace is wider at the point and with hole to attach some horizontal bar, to prevent deeper penetrating of the blade. This one is without such feature, and holes we can see are purely for decorating purposes.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes a clue. Some how it does not look like a fighting weapon. I would not like to fight an opponent with this blade if they had a straight blade. There are many versions of hunting blades as your life is not so dependant on them.

What is that picture from?

[Congoblades]

Originally Posted by Rick

I see drums and flags at the ricasso .
How about doing a rubbing of the marks ?

I did that, it didn'nt work very well, those marks are superficial, perhaps I must try again.

[Congoblades]

Some different light used to make the picture.

Thanks all for the respons, intresting so far

[Rick]

Hmmm, nice pictures Congo' .
Now they look like bucklers possibly; I still think those are banners to each side .

[RSWORD]

It is possible the blade is of Portuguese origin. Portugal had very early dealings in Africa and I could see this piece being a holdover from those early adventures.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

It is possible the blade is of Portuguese origin. Portugal had very early dealings in Africa and I could see this piece being a holdover from those early adventures.

So Rick , do you think it may be a rapier blade ?

It would seem that it is of too high a quality to be a trade object .

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by Rick

So Rick , do you think it may be a rapier blade ?

It would seem that it is of too high a quality to be a trade object .

I do think it is a rapier blade and would not be surprised if beneath the handle there is the typical ricasso found on these early rapiers. The fullering is quite nicely done although I cannot tell from the pictures if the waves were forged or created from stock removal. They lack the "grace" of forged waves but we do not have good close up shots of these areas of the blade. The blade shows a tremendous amount of surface wear and corrosion and I tend to think it is quite early, possibly 16th or 17th century.

It would be really, really nice if this blade could talk. Who knows how a very early rapier blade ended up in an old weapons collection in the Congo. If we agree the "etchings" are much later than the blade, perhaps the blade had already been converted into a walking cane which was not uncommon in the 18th and 19th century and found it's way to Africa via missionary or other routes and therefore was not mounted up in Africa but elsewhere and left behind by a 19th century visitor.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

I do think it is a rapier blade and would not be surprised if beneath the handle there is the typical ricasso found on these early rapiers. The fullering is quite nicely done although I cannot tell from the pictures if the waves were forged or created from stock removal. They lack the "grace" of forged waves but we do not have good close up shots of these areas of the blade. The blade shows a tremendous amount of surface wear and corrosion and I tend to think it is quite early, possibly 16th or 17th century.

It would be really, really nice if this blade could talk. Who knows how a very early rapier blade ended up in an old weapons collection in the Congo. If we agree the "etchings" are much later than the blade, perhaps the blade had already been converted into a walking cane which was not uncommon in the 18th and 19th century and found it's way to Africa via missionary or other routes and therefore was not mounted up in Africa but elsewhere and left behind by a 19th century visitor.

I'd bet those were hot stampings rather than etchings Rick .
If this were a sword cane ; at 37" inches it would be one helluva draw to get it out .

Were I the owner I'd send it to Craig for a proper hilting; then again I'm not the owner .

I think it's beautiful yet still I wonder; did they halfsword with a rapier ?
The rapier appeared not too long after halfswording was an accepted technique .
I wonder was there an overlapping of styles at some point .

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with the observations expessed suggesting this is quite likely Portuguese and probably end of the 17th century blade. As Rick mentioned, the Portuguese had trade dealings and stations into these regions from many years earlier, and blades often followed these routes. In the book "Homens Espades e' Tomates" (a curious title but excellent book in Portuguese) by the prominant collector Rainer Daehnhardt, Lisbon, 1973, on p.31 a Portuguese cuphilt c.1640-1668 is shown. While the blade is undulating it appears the full length of the blade.
Apparantly these undulating, flamboyant blades had a degree of popularity in Spain (an 18th c. cuphilt, Spanish w.German blade, undulation full length, shown in "European and American Arms" Claude Blair, fig. 136). This fashion carried into European smallswords (Nuemann, 206S, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution") where an example has again, full length undulation, and it notes "primarily for decoration" which suggests no particular practical advantage intended with the undulations. Such feature was even carried to English officers broadsword c.1775 (Neumann #148S).

The apparant age, fullering, piercings seem to indicate the 17th c. period quite plausible on this blade, with the undulations intended to apply more to Christian symbolism than to practical purpose. In Masonic lore the wavy or serpentine blade recalls the flaming sword guarding the gates of paradise ("Material Culture of the American Freemasons" John Hamilton, 1994, p.149) and though described for American application, possibly the symbolism may extend to the well established military orders in Portugal.

Just some references and observations to support what you guys have already well figured out!!! Pretty interesting blade that may well have some fascinating history.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

If this were a sword cane ; at 37" inches it would be one helluva draw to get it out .

I have a sword stick with an old ( spanish ) blade with the same length. I thaught potentially these blades are easier to draw from their concealing sheaths as, not being linked to the waist belt, will allow you to fully extend both your arms.
On the other hand, If this is indeed a rapier blade, is actually a short one. Typical ( slim ) rapiers were much of an urban weapon, the owner allways trying to have a longer specimen, to enable him to prick an opponent, while keeping him out of reach.
In 1539 the Royal regulation limited these blades to five palms ( 1,10 mts.= 43" ) but in general these rules were not so followed, and several "ilegal" rapiers appeared with seven palms, and exceptionaly with nine palms ( or spans.) Even an ingineous system was developed, in which a five palms blade was indeed a two part set, with an extendable two palms length emerging from the hollow ricasso. These were called growing rapiers. Even King Dom João IV (1640) was found to have one in his armoury inventory.
The above said is mostly a quotation from the book already mentioned in this thread by Jim.
It would be great to figure out who is the figure opposite from Diana ( being Diana ). Looks like having a quiver on the back, and brandishing a sickle weapon on his right hand ... another god ? Pagan ? There should be some relation between these and the tryumphal figures on the ricasso?
So far and within my limitations i don't see that this blade is rather Portuguese and not Toledan, or so else.
... Eventualy a customized piece,to be used by a public official or some kind of big shot? One can see Rick's logic in the non waved lower half matching well into the halfswording style , like the spare hand grabing the blade ricasso to strenghten the stabbing. This would surely mean this is an operational weapon.
The wood handle fixation looks quite tight and well configured, maybe not a domestic job. I wonder what the missing pommel knob looked like.
Wouldn't there be blades, even efective blades, deliberatly made for concealed weapons ? If in that period a Court official or some other big shot would officiously carry a stick or a baton with a concealed blade, couldn't sometimes the blade be directly made for the purpose ?
kind regards
fernando

[Congoblades]

Another item in the african collection is not african, maiby there is a link with the sword? or maiby it has nothing to do with it , just wondering what the meaning of this spoon is, being in a collection between 70 other weapons and items who are typical Central Africa, exept for the sword ofcourse.

[katana]

I'm still fascinated by the waves in the blade....Rapier or sword stick...what is the function of these 'waves'.....does it cause a greater wound/damage or has it another purpose

[fernando]

Probably my last post on the Portuguese rapier length evolution was not so vital for the thread subject and therefore not so much considered, but still i ought to make a correction, as i have put it wrong somehow. The lengths i quoted from Mr. Rainer Daehnhardt's book, as also from another work by Eduardo Nobre As Armas e os Barões , for the legal and "off mark" rapiers, were those for the complete sword, and not for the blade alone, as i might have put it in some parts of my post.
My apologies for such lack of precision.
fernando

[fernando]

Hi Katana
The experts in the Forum should know a lot about this subject. I beleive the flaming blades have different reasons, depending on the purpose of the object. Probably only for symbolic and visual impact in non combat pieces. However those seen in action swords, the heavy stuff, are basicaly intended to offer a multiple cutting area. It should cut ( slash ) quicker and deeper. This looking to have some logic, is ( at least ) quoted in this nice book of the Portuguese arms evolution by Eduardo Nobre.
So far i find Congoblades piece a unique situtation, as i can not trace, neither in pictures nor in texts, a half waved blade. Certainly there is some material out there, waiting to be spoted. Till then, Rick's aproach on the halfswording hipothesis, prevails as best, i would say.
fernando