Bali Keris for Comment

JustYS · 22nd April 2026, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

JustYS,
I don’t know how reliable Google Translate is but, for what it’s worth, selecting Indonesian to English resulted in dhapur being translated as “form” but when Javanese was selected, the English translation was “kitchen”. The translation of pamor in both Indonesian and Javanese was translated as prestige. Curiously though, when translated from Javanese, “prestige” was all lower case but when translated from Indonesian, it was initial cap (Pamor).

Sincerely,
RobT

Hi RobT,

Dapur is kitchen and pamor is prestige, both are Indonesian words and I am 100% sure.

Now if we move to Javanese.

I do speak and understand but limited low level Javanese.

Dhapur translated from Javanese to Indonesian is rupa which can be translated to form/shape

Pamor is an interesting one the root word is amor which translated to Indonesian is campur which means mix in English. My guess is Keris people use the word Pamor to describe the pattern of the blades because to create a pattern you need to mix at least 2 different metals.

Alan, please feel free to jump in, I know your knowledge in both Javanese and Keris is far superior than me.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd April 2026, 05:32 AM

Thank you for your compliments Yohan , but I must correct a small misunderstanding:- my Javanese is not of a useable nature, I cannot speak acceptable Javanese, so I choose not to try, it is far too easy to insult somebody by failing to observe the niceties of this language. Rather, I have made the Javanese language a matter of study, in much the same way as one might study, let us say, a work of art, that is to say the construction, processes & appreciation of the work of art, but without the ability to create it --- and indeed, the Javanese language when used well is very like unto a work of art.

I truly believe that in order to use the Javanese language well, one must be born Javanese, & based upon my own observations, it is probably preferable to be born into a lower level of society, rather than a higher level. The correct use of the Javanese language comes with a whole carriage load of social convention & I rather feel that in order to learn that convention adequately one needs to have developed one's mind into a Javanese form from a very young age.

Similarly, although my Bahasa Indonesia is totally adequate for communication, & I read BI as easily as I can read English, my BI language skills are not at the level of an educated Indonesian person. I learnt BI from people of low social status in Solo, simply by everyday forced use over a period of years. The way the people I learnt from use BI is to mix BI words & ngoko (low Javanese) words together, along with regional dialect. Nobody could mistake my Bahasa Indonesia for the speech of an educated person, & that is certain.

I agree with everything that JustYS has written in respect of dapur, dhapur & pamor.

I will add small further comment.
Dapur is Bahasa Indonesia, it does not appear in Modern Javanese, but it does appear in Old Javanese where it has several different meanings, none of which are "kitchen".

Dhapur does appear in Modern Javanese where it has several meanings that are dependent upon situational use. One of those meanings can be kitchen, however, the usual Javanese word for "kitchen" is "pawon".

Dapur also appears in Old Javanese, & again with several situational meanings, none of which are "kitchen".

The use of "dapur" as a word meaning "kitchen" appears to come from Malay, understandable, as the foundation stone of Bahasa Indonesia is the dialect of Malay that is spoken in Riau & surrounding areas. This was chosen as the national language for the new political entity of Indonesia because it has been the lingua franca for trade for hundreds of years --- perhaps more than just hundreds of years.

The word "pamor" certainly implies something that is mixed, but "pamor" is from "mor", as far as I am aware "amor" is for use with people, as in mixing with a group of people, and can even be used in the context of having sex with another person, whereas "mor" is for use with inanimate things, for example mixing butter & sugar & flour to make biscuits, & this would then be "mor-moran" = a mixture.

Perhaps the thought might have occurred that since the keris can in some instances be regarded as a living thing that the root of "amor" could be used, but if it was thought of as inanimate then the appropriate root would need to be "mor". I believe --- and this belief could easily be wrong thinking, I was not around when the word was first coined.

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23rd April 2026, 05:32 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,228	Thank you for your compliments Yohan , but I must correct a small misunderstanding:- my Javanese is not of a useable nature, I cannot speak acceptable Javanese, so I choose not to try, it is far too easy to insult somebody by failing to observe the niceties of this language. Rather, I have made the Javanese language a matter of study, in much the same way as one might study, let us say, a work of art, that is to say the construction, processes & appreciation of the work of art, but without the ability to create it --- and indeed, the Javanese language when used well is very like unto a work of art. I truly believe that in order to use the Javanese language well, one must be born Javanese, & based upon my own observations, it is probably preferable to be born into a lower level of society, rather than a higher level. The correct use of the Javanese language comes with a whole carriage load of social convention & I rather feel that in order to learn that convention adequately one needs to have developed one's mind into a Javanese form from a very young age. Similarly, although my Bahasa Indonesia is totally adequate for communication, & I read BI as easily as I can read English, my BI language skills are not at the level of an educated Indonesian person. I learnt BI from people of low social status in Solo, simply by everyday forced use over a period of years. The way the people I learnt from use BI is to mix BI words & ngoko (low Javanese) words together, along with regional dialect. Nobody could mistake my Bahasa Indonesia for the speech of an educated person, & that is certain. I agree with everything that JustYS has written in respect of dapur, dhapur & pamor. I will add small further comment. Dapur is Bahasa Indonesia, it does not appear in Modern Javanese, but it does appear in Old Javanese where it has several different meanings, none of which are "kitchen". Dhapur does appear in Modern Javanese where it has several meanings that are dependent upon situational use. One of those meanings can be kitchen, however, the usual Javanese word for "kitchen" is "pawon". Dapur also appears in Old Javanese, & again with several situational meanings, none of which are "kitchen". The use of "dapur" as a word meaning "kitchen" appears to come from Malay, understandable, as the foundation stone of Bahasa Indonesia is the dialect of Malay that is spoken in Riau & surrounding areas. This was chosen as the national language for the new political entity of Indonesia because it has been the lingua franca for trade for hundreds of years --- perhaps more than just hundreds of years. The word "pamor" certainly implies something that is mixed, but "pamor" is from "mor", as far as I am aware "amor" is for use with people, as in mixing with a group of people, and can even be used in the context of having sex with another person, whereas "mor" is for use with inanimate things, for example mixing butter & sugar & flour to make biscuits, & this would then be "mor-moran" = a mixture. Perhaps the thought might have occurred that since the keris can in some instances be regarded as a living thing that the root of "amor" could be used, but if it was thought of as inanimate then the appropriate root would need to be "mor". I believe --- and this belief could easily be wrong thinking, I was not around when the word was first coined.