Bali Keris for Comment

RobT · 21st April 2026, 12:31 AM

A. G. Maisey and Gustav,
Yikes!!! From what you have both written, the answer to a keris related question might depend on whom one asks, the era and/or clique of the informant, his mood or the time of day, and what the informant thinks will please the person asking the question. The answer given will depend on one, some, or all of these factors. Well, at least I know that sampiran and sampir have nothing to do with boats and cenangan is the correct spelling. Everything else seems pretty much up for grabs.

A. G. Maisey,
When talking about keris, I also try to use English words whenever possible but sometimes Indonesian words are the only game in town (eg wranka, uwer). Even when roughly equivalent English words exist (for example pattern and shape for pamor and dhapur), the Indonesian words are preferable when speaking about keris. Thanks for the photo of Balinese keris part names. I will add it to my data base.

Sincerely,
RobT

JustYS · 21st April 2026, 11:16 AM

Hi RobT,

Just a clarification pamor and dhapur are NOT Indonesian words, they are Javanese.

Word Pamor also exists in Indonesian but it means prestige.

Word Dapur (different spelling without h) also exists in Indonesian and it means kitchen

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2026, 11:16 AM

wrongko = scabbard

uwer = hilt ring

the word that there is really no substitution for is gonjo. Some people will translate this as "guard", but it is not. If one uses spiritual belief it is translated as Ganges, ie, River Ganges & given a water association. I seem to recall that it also has an association with one of the administration ranks, perhaps a bupati, I really forget, I'd need to go digging through dictionaries & word lists, & there are 3 common levels of Javanese or depending on how one counts, 4 levels, & in karaton society perhaps 11 levels of language, one of which is comprised of impromptu verse which needs to be sung.

But you're right Rob, when it gets right down to basics, there are some words that cannot be translated, & that is mostly because there are ideas within the Javanese world view that are very alien to the world view of many other people.In my opinion it is not really possible to understand the keris as people of a keris bearing society understand it, unless one can think in the same way, or at least understand the way in which these people think, & perhaps it is not possible to do that unless the society & its languages are understood.

I put the images up so that for those who like to expose confusion & error they can fill in at least one empty afternoon by doing comparisons of names & forms, yeah, not everybody is fluent in BI, but one of the online translators is only a couple of key strokes away.

21st April 2026, 12:31 AM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 644	Rather Daunting A. G. Maisey and Gustav, Yikes!!! From what you have both written, the answer to a keris related question might depend on whom one asks, the era and/or clique of the informant, his mood or the time of day, and what the informant thinks will please the person asking the question. The answer given will depend on one, some, or all of these factors. Well, at least I know that sampiran and sampir have nothing to do with boats and cenangan is the correct spelling. Everything else seems pretty much up for grabs. A. G. Maisey, When talking about keris, I also try to use English words whenever possible but sometimes Indonesian words are the only game in town (eg wranka, uwer). Even when roughly equivalent English words exist (for example pattern and shape for pamor and dhapur), the Indonesian words are preferable when speaking about keris. Thanks for the photo of Balinese keris part names. I will add it to my data base. Sincerely, RobT

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

21st April 2026, 11:16 AM	#2
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 157	Hi RobT, Just a clarification pamor and dhapur are NOT Indonesian words, they are Javanese. Word Pamor also exists in Indonesian but it means prestige. Word Dapur (different spelling without h) also exists in Indonesian and it means kitchen

21st April 2026, 11:16 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,228	wrongko = scabbard uwer = hilt ring the word that there is really no substitution for is gonjo. Some people will translate this as "guard", but it is not. If one uses spiritual belief it is translated as Ganges, ie, River Ganges & given a water association. I seem to recall that it also has an association with one of the administration ranks, perhaps a bupati, I really forget, I'd need to go digging through dictionaries & word lists, & there are 3 common levels of Javanese or depending on how one counts, 4 levels, & in karaton society perhaps 11 levels of language, one of which is comprised of impromptu verse which needs to be sung. But you're right Rob, when it gets right down to basics, there are some words that cannot be translated, & that is mostly because there are ideas within the Javanese world view that are very alien to the world view of many other people.In my opinion it is not really possible to understand the keris as people of a keris bearing society understand it, unless one can think in the same way, or at least understand the way in which these people think, & perhaps it is not possible to do that unless the society & its languages are understood. I put the images up so that for those who like to expose confusion & error they can fill in at least one empty afternoon by doing comparisons of names & forms, yeah, not everybody is fluent in BI, but one of the online translators is only a couple of key strokes away.