Anglo-Arabic sword with unclear dedication

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by Magey_McMage

Hi Peter, thank you so much for the reply!

I have tried to contact museums before and generally have little to no luck. I will share, as a gift to the forum for all the help I have received so immediately, one of the rarest or most unusual things I possess, an extremely unusual Italian 1855 blade. I had won it from Czernys and reached out to multiple Italian museums for any advice but never received any feedback. It is, in all dimensional measurements, almost perfectly 1.5x the size of a standard 1855. It has a 121cm blade that is ~45mm wide and about 12-13mm thick. It weighs around 2150 grams, or about 4.8lbs. Made by a Solingen blade factory like most Italian blades were. It is engraved, not acid etched, but that is common for a lot of Italian swords as well. The sword featured for comparison is a slightly irregular 1855 with an 84cm blade more in an Anglo-Austrian type of grind. The sword has been heat treated and there is a nice spring tempter to it. It so far is my ultimate Mystery Sword to uncover. I am tempted to commission a proportional guard, grip, and backstrap/pommel, albeit grips were usually ebony and the cost would be high. The other thing I have long been tempted to do is extend the tang another 5-8cm out, still have a grip made, but have a complex hilt made and have the mother of all "swiss sabres." Just as a physical piece of steel, the length and thickness of the blade is so massive you could make multiple regular sized swords from it.

Apologies, that became off topic quite quickly, I simply wanted to share an example of one I have attempted to research via museum previously that so far has no results. I will go ahead and begin to research various museums alongside potential domestic (US) academics that may have a focus in this area as well. Should I find any further information I will be sure to let you know. I have loved finding other unusual cross-cultural swords from older threads, the Tulwar with the hybrid tulwar/gothic hilt with an elephant where the VR Cypher would go has been one of the coolest damned swords I have ever seen. It is quite sad how we can find notes and drawings in Wilkinson Patterns & Blade Rubs on all manner of specially made swords for kings and foreign armies, brief descriptors on unusual blades or experimental hilts, but so little of it survives through today. I can only hope that there are others hidden away in private collections that may one day be cataloged and photographed for public knowledge.

I am still on double secret probation and my replies do need to be reviewed first before posting, but I will either link to the thread you mentioned, or copy the text and images over there. Most of my British and French collection so far has been focused on 2 things. #1 is simply to posses at least 1 of every standard regulation pattern (albeit the nicer options) just as a baseline. #2, like the sword that is the focus of this thread, is to find the unusual items. I am quite fond of patent solid hilts. I am well aware of the claims of them being "extra" durable is likely marketing, but in a way that is hard to explain online, the extra mass in the hand and a wider and thicker blade at the ricasso (not always, I've 2 infantry patent hilts and 1 cavalry patent hilt that have wider but thinner blades at the ricasso) allows for a cutler to shape the feeling of the sword with a greater degree of freedom. And THAT is why they are better, in my opinion. They feel livelier in the hand. Regardless, I have been pushing to find non-regulation sabres, especially officer sabres, for my own niche focus. The French, like I mentioned in the other British sword thread, had some truly wonderful designs that pre-date the 1882 pattern infantry sword. The massive one I linked, with a flattened diamond 950x35x8mm blade is my favorite handling sword I own. The balance of it is sublime in the hand, it feels regal, like a knight's lance. I am attempting to flesh out these non regulation swords more with a focus specifically on how they handle. In a time when you had both centuries of skilled-trade craftsmanship but also the advent of the industrial revolution, combining machinery with man and mathematics and science and numbers with tradition, this era of swords interests me the most. Laboratories and tests to find the most perfectly optimized swords. And in that era, when they had things down to exact sciences, people STILL chose deliberately non regulation swords. It is those swords, and why they chose them, that interests me the most.

Some were fashion trends, such as the Royal Navy liking shorter claymore blades, or French infantry officers and Toledo pattern blades. But when the Wilkinson ledger has an officer make specific requests, there is something deliberate there, something they thought would make for a better sword. I dont believe there is ever 1 perfect sword out there, and there is no thesis statement of mine that shakes up the antique sword academic world (beyond Patent Hilts feeling more lively in the hand == a better sword by ease of handling), but I want to have a large enough collection that I can point to general unusual trends and deviations and find what works and what doesn't work on the subjective grading of my own tastes.

Or, in other words, I collect the swords I think I would enjoy using the most.

Most of my long write-ups are on the IASC facebook group if only because that tends to be the spot where the majority of British sword discussion occurs (and it is easy to make a quick upload of text and photos), I do have many other unusual British sabres or ones of unique provenance such as this 1892. To link it again, https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/t...sword-showcase is the state of my collection as of ~2.5 years ago now. The British, French, and Italian fields are really the only ones that have grown significantly since so many items are not photographed there. But if there are any listed there that you would like more photos and information on, please do not hesitate to let me know, thank you!

Did you tried the Stibbert museum? They seem to be fond of weird things and theit collection has a number of blades from the Italian Unification wars, as Stibbert himself took part.

[Jim McDougall]

Magey, just wanted to note I very much like your well thought through and detailed posts, and that you explain your interests and agenda in collecting as well as ideas and observations throughout. It really adds a great deal to have these kinds of entries that offer insights into the areas of interest being discussed.

Your interest in the sword forms, both regulation and keenly on the non-regulation forms used by officers is indeed a topic not well covered in most discussions on military related swords. Frankly too many collectors simply collect by the regulation patterns with really delving into the esoterica that was far more common than many realize.

As you note, swords were of course, weapons, and as such obviously the notion that 'one size fits all' is clearly not effective. Officers in the 19th century, were traditionally swordsmen, and as such had their own requirements for the swords they would use in the field. Obviously this is why many officers swords outside the regulation patterns of the time were often termed 'fighting swords', and personally tailored or matching that officers preferences. The rank and file of course were issued the regulation swords and expected to deal with them accordingly.

Throughout the 19th century, regulation swords were constantly being reviewed, complained about, redesigned and altered. British swords were notoriously the object of considerable conflict, the debates between cut and thrust uses not withstanding. Brian Robson's book in 1975 well details much of this ("Swords of the British Army") . Also Richard Dellar's "The British Cavalry Sword: Some New Perspectives" and companion volume also is most valuable. I know you must already have these, but noting for readers.

I agree with the note that refurbishing antique weapons is typically compromising in the value, but it is of course a matter of preference. For me, as an arms historian, the weapon left in situ is key to understanding its specific history. Even repairs in its working life become elements of forensic examination.

The note on the Garden firm examples is a point well made. These are as Will notes quite rarely found. On that note, Will I have a question for you:
You note numbering on the spine of a sword, and it seems I have seen suggested that often swords destined for East India Company service were often numbered in this manner (Garden & Co. ?).

I have a Reeves pattern 1821 light cavalry saber, which is numbered 111, on the spine. Would this possibly be a weapon in this category?

[Magey_McMage]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...On that note, Will I have a question for you:
You note numbering on the spine of a sword, and it seems I have seen suggested that often swords destined for East India Company service were often numbered in this manner (Garden & Co. ?).

I have a Reeves pattern 1821 light cavalry saber, which is numbered 111, on the spine. Would this possibly be a weapon in this category?

Thank you for the kind words! Unfortunately I have not been able to research the sort of logistical and categorical internal record keeping as much as other people. Especially those living in the UK. If you are on the IASC facebook group there are some individuals I would recommend talking to on that.

The author of this website here: https://swordresearch.org/SwordSearch/Landing.php is one I would strongly recommend, but I otherwise don't feel comfortable saying names due to the permanent nature of the internet.

As far as s/ns and markings go, I believe there are at least these following different variations:

-the various troopers inspection, factory, and government marks including unit designation when added

-internal serial numbers on private purchase officer swords with the examples I can think of as follows:
-Wilkinson starting in the 5000 range and eventually going into the hundreds of thousands (frankly anything above 60000 while finely made is probably more vestigial than anything else)
-I am not sure the exact dating of Pillin serial numbers, but 99XXX numbers on otherwise illegible swords appear to correlate to Pillin manufacture around the 1890s
-Robert Mole swords occasionally had numbers placed on the back that have a prefix of M EG M2112

with contracts to specific outfitters, I know Hawkes & Co (today Gieves & Hawkes) had a specific system but I am unsure on more specifics. An associate of the above website has been researching them, I would be glad to give you his facebook contact info privately if you'd like. For those, I see mostly 4-figure s/ns. I have a 1LG sword with a 3-digit serial number I have been told dates to around the 1860s or 1870s IIRC. I believe Wilkinson was usually the source for Hawkes but I have seen others. Hawkes, Hamburger Rogers & Co (today absorbed by Dege & Skinner), and Ede & Ravenscroft (rarely, I have only seen a few swords with their name on them and I am not sure if there is anyone more posh than they were) all have examples of Wilkinson, Pillin, and other blades so there was no 1-source. I am unsure for example if the Hawkes internal serial numbers were applied to any sword that entered their books for internal record keeping regardless of maker, or if they denoted a specific contract only by Wilkinson or if each maker had their own range, that is far beyond my skills to research.

I believe the markings on officer swords in India were sometimes done as part of the transit. EG if the logistics arm of the British army and Royal Navy was to be transporting men over there as a whole unit, then swords may have been marked upon arrival at the arsenals. But you can also find many Indian service swords without the ISD arrow, outfitters like Manton & Co of Calcutta with no markings, or swords belonging to British officers we KNOW served in India and the Northwest frontier without any markings either. Suffice to say I frankly have no strong theories either way. Maybe it related to the manner in which they travelled, personally by land or by sea? It might be possible that for ease of logistics, they sent their equipment ahead of them as part of the logistics chain like rifles, ammo, webbing, etc? I am just guessing at this point.

The only thing I 100% know is that the arrow with ISD means it was for certain in the British Raj arsenal/armoury at some point, whether it was just stamping it to make sure it was accounted for and handing it back to the owner, or swords bought and kept in reserve to issue when needed or anything else. I apologize I wish I had more information for you.

I have 2 Pillin patent solid hilts made for outfitter Phillips & Sons, they each have different S/Ns than normal with 4-digit numbers, both made extremely close to each other in time (early 1870s iirc), so

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much for all this detail Magey! great insights into the particulars of these outfitters and makers for British military and EIC. You knows your stuff!!!
There seem to be notable variables in the administrative aspects of these company's. When Wilkinson-Latham was writing on SFI he was of course truly a fountain of knowledge and first hand material. I had the pleasure of some communication with him and he was incredibly helpful.

With swords to India, as you note, many weapons transited did indeed go around the conduits to ISD, especially as you note to outfitters like Manton & Co. I have a Bourne & sons saber which has only their spine marking, and if I understand they were also sub contractors to Wilkinson, like Mole (who was bought out by them in 1920s).

I do appreciate the information, and again, especially that you take the time to detail your responses, which are most informative. I wish I could find the passim note I had that suggested numbering of this kind on blade spines had to do with EIC swords. The 1821 I have is not an officers, unless it was intended as a field weapon.
Other Reeves weapons including the M1853 (which had the Reeves patent tang) as far as I know were not numbered.

All the best
Jim

[Magey_McMage]

I have submitted an email request for information to the Oman National Museum. This is far outside my scope of knowledge and outside of a few German museums getting back to me once about a very rare NCO blue & gilt "damascus" sword, I usually get nothing but radio silence here.

As other boards on this forum deal with more ethnographic and non-Western based weapons, I would request any suggestions on academic professors, researchers, or other individuals and places to whom I can contact. (I dont blame museums for radio silence, they are far from glamorous and it is elements of the worst parts of public facing civil service, the politics of upper academia and having to follow the current trends culturally, filling out endless grant forms, having to appease your Patrons, and very little actual time getting to researching and exploring antiques)

I do not like to reply without images so the attached is a true mystery to me when it arrives. Saw it at auction, the hilt and blade interested me, but I did not bid. Saw it again some months later and I am quite superstitious in a 'small bits of fate' sort of way so I knew I needed to get it. Whether it is a composite or not almost does not even matter to the central mystery: the guard is of the bataille hilt style from the Ancien Regime through Napoleon, as is the shape of the blade (95cm by my estimates). However, the grip is horn, and the plate on the guard is of the type associated with superior officers, specifically the 6 flags. Image #2 is a half finished superior officer guard of a rare "Gothic" type I got and will one day have finished to be mounted on a NOS superior officer blade (not trying to pass off as truly original, but I've long wanted to take old unused parts and make "new" swords just for myself) for comparison RE the flags. The blade also appears to be one of the rare French types that is etched in a Franco/German style, and not blue & gilt. My current theory is mid century when they had that other fun period of changing governments like women change purses. The ship in the middle there is usually related to Paris.

Searching for answers in books & online has been quite a challenge. There is a non-zero chance it could also be for naval or marine officers. My strongest association is one of the Guard units around Paris somewhere between 1848 and 1853 for obvious reasons/ But there are so many different implementations of civic, municipal, gendarmeries, republican, royal, etc. that accounting for translations being slightly wrong, people mislabeling antiques, and all the various ways a single word change can make the difference between 2 different the Paris national guard, the Paris republican guard, etc. that until some sort of documentation or photos are found, I do not think I can fully ascribe provenance to this hilt whatsoever.

As said earlier, both myself and Mr. Jean Ondry believe there is a solid chance this is a composite, albeit an older composite. The blade is form correct though. Large guards like this were offered even into the 20th century though it seems weird that no examples pop up elsewhere. As an aside, it has me wondering in a regrettable way if many swords purported to be older than they are, such as belonging to the Napoleonic Wars era, are actually later creations and either through ignorance or outright malice, have all been slowly shifted towards an earlier provenance? After 4-8+ owners over a century or more, or sold by a relative or an antique dealer, it would only take a single person to misattribute the sword to an earlier era to make it largely permanent, and you would need to look at all of them with a deliberate focus of trying to prove they are not as old. I cannot speak any French and I do not wish to disturb the waters over on Passion-Militaria enough or even in France proper to ever make any public statements. There is, however, a fascinating world of custom and non regulation swords over there that is waiting to one day be uncovered and categorized more, just by looking at hilts. Last images are of various catalogs in the last decades of the 19th and early 20th century (image #4 is another unused guard I got that was unfinished, has what appear to be guide lines for some fleur-de-lys type of later chiseling, but has again appeared to be a complete mystery for provenance as it does not match hilts seen anywhere. I have a Swedish 1773 cavalry pallasch blade and should I ever find someone who can, I would love to have the hilt decorated and filled out with maybe a central elaborate plate mounted of some sort even just for a personal design, the tongue of this one is quite wide and long at the top so unless it was overcast and meant to be filed later, whatever pommel or backstrap it was to slot into was quite large)

Hopefully I can ascribe a provenance to this sword, I've no intention of selling it based on that or anything, but I find having 'story' swords to be good conversation pieces if nothing else!