Keris ID

[A. G. Maisey]

So --- point of geographic origin of blade, scabbard, hilt, hilt cup, and also estimate of age for all those things.

Not my field Adam, but there are people here who might care to provide an educated guess.

Just hope they read this thread.

But for now, my uneducated guess:- a keris of the Bugis people, probably 19th century, geographically maybe North Sumatera through to Peninsula.

[David]

I don't see much that is particularly Bugis in this keris. The dress looks Sumatran to my eyes and the blade as well, but while some Sumatran keris will indeed have a Bugis influence i am not seeing that here, beyond the pistol style hilt.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I have little interest in keris that are outside the core keris culture area of Jawa-Bali, however if I apply the way in which keris in these areas were classified by the people who taught me, the scabbard & hilt that I'm looking at here would be given as Bugis, the blade would be given as "diluar Jawa" outside Jawa, which is understood as "it doesn't really matter". That's Jawa keris thought, not keris collector thought.

Now, Adam has said "whole kit & caboodle", I understand that as the entire keris, ie, the keris that we see before we remove the blade from the scabbard.

So looking at this entire keris, I really cannot see anything other than a keris that falls within the spread of Bugis culture.

The blade?

Well, that is "outside Jawa".

When somebody can tell me exactly where, outside Jawa, & why from that specific place, I'll certainly listen and take note.

[Sajen]

I also think that the keris is Sumatran but I am not sure from where exactly. South Sumatra? Minangkabau?
But I think or guess that "gandar" is glued wrong to the "atasan", I think the atasan needs to be turned about 180 degrees, that's the impression when I look at the pictures. But it could also be caused by the done repair that it looks a little bit weird. I am unsure.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, that idea of "Bugis style" is very probably a bit off track. Monumental evidence indicates that the scabbard used in East Jawa during the Mojopahit era was the same form that we now call a "Bugis" scabbard. The keris began its spread through SE Asia during Mojo times, due to trade links, & and as a "weapon" of diplomacy --- the binding force of the keris.

This early Javanese form was adopted by the Bugis people, so really, we are looking at an early Javanese scabbard form.

As I commented in my original guess:- " --- geographically maybe North Sumatera through to Peninsula".

So I'm not at all arguing against Sumatra, I'm saying that I am unable to rationally support any specific geographic location, I'm saying --- very clearly --- that I'm guessing.

I do know some very experienced keris people who would place that scabbard as Riau.

I know other equally experienced keris people who would place the hilt as South Sulawesi & give it the correct name used in that area.

The hilt cup I think is most likely Peninsula, & that's a genuine guess.

The blade certainly appears to be outside Jawa, but it could possibly be from one of the areas not under direct kraton influence, however, I'm still inclined to go with what I believe would be the opinion of my teachers:- "diluarJawa" & thus not even worthy of consideration --- in fairness, these teachers were very Jawa-centric, maybe I should say Solo-centric.

If I had it in hand I might be able to construct a supportable opinion, from a photo I cannot:- a photo simply cannot give sufficient information upon which to give a defensible opinion.

A guess is a guess, and an opinion in the absence of supporting evidence is pretty much the same as a guess.

Detlef, yeah, I agree, that repair looks pretty clumsy, maybe the blade is not original to the scabbard & this strange angle was forced upon it. Maybe.


Post #5

I think I should tighten up my relaxed comment here, & write what I really mean. Forget "--- maybe North Sumatera ---" & substitute "--- maybe along the North Coast of Sumatera & including adjacent islands ---". It is still a guess.

[David]

Alan, i'm definitely not trying to force a answer out of you regarding origin of this keris. I have long been aware of your preferred concentration of study and that keris like this lie outside those parameters. I only responded to your statement that you saw this as a keris of the Bugis people because to my eyes this keris blade displays nothing that i would identify with what we generally accept as Bugis style blades.Yes, it is certainly diluar Jawa, but i'm sure that you don't believe everything outside Jawa is Bugis. It seems more influenced by Palembang blades than anything else.
Now when i hear the "whole kit & caboodle", it doesn't just mean the keris that we see before we remove the blade from the scabbard. It means everything, INCLUDING the blade that we see once we do remove it from the scabbard. Even so, i am not convinced that this sheath is a type that would be common to the Bugis culture. It's width is much thinner and it seems to have a form that puts me in mind of Minangkabau keris. Likewise the hiltcup. See the example below.
That said, i am much like you in this regard in that the majority of my focus in keris has been placed upon Jawa, Bali and to some extent Madura, so i really am operating more on feelings than solid fact here. But i would not be surprised to find that is South Sumatran, possibly Minang. I also suspect that the gandar is not simple a bad repair, but not at all the original sheath stem, which may have offered more clues to it's origin if it had been intact.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

It's width is much thinner and it seems to have a form that puts me in mind of Minangkabau keris. Likewise the hiltcup. See the example below.
That said, i am much like you in this regard in that the majority of my focus in keris has been placed upon Jawa, Bali and to some extent Madura, so i really am operating more on feelings than solid fact here. But i would not be surprised to find that is South Sumatran, possibly Minang. I also suspect that the gandar is not simple a bad repair, but not at all the original sheath stem, which may have offered more clues to it's origin if it had been intact.

Agree with you David, I also would place it as South Sumatra or Minang. And a very good suggestion that the gandar might not be the original one, the weird joint and the overall appearance of the scabbard I am uncomfortable with. The gandar looks Malay IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef