Styrian basket hilted sword and Styrian dusage

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by serdar

P2

Thank you for posting these pictures that much better show the patina of the item. Wonderful sword. The unusual details which confused me at first is the pommel where dussägge typically have pommels with rectangular pyramidical forms whereas this pommel is quite flattened so it almost forms an inverted pyramid. But I suppose it might offer a better grip for a big hand. Also dusägge often have more more pyramid shaped half basket guards whereas this sword has a more rectangular shaped guard, which is joined to the knuckle guard by an S shaped diagonal bar as is quite normal. I love the blade.

In statistics there is something called the Null hypothesis H0 which you then try to find sufficient evidence to reject. But failure to reject H0 doesnÂ’t necessarily mean itÂ’s true. We could call H0 the hypothesis that a sword is genuine. The alternative hypothesis would be that itÂ’s a fake. We would be hard pressed to know 100% a sword is genuine if we did not find it in an undisturbed tomb or castle or something like that. A Type I Error is when you reject the Null hypothesis when in fact itÂ’s true. So this would be rejecting the sword as a fake when in fact itÂ’s genuine. The cost would be missing out on acquiring a genuine sword. Ewart Oakeshott argued this is quite common for medieval swords where people write off swords with any unusual details. You can lower the odds or probability of doing this by acquiring a sword from an old respectable collection. You may not know for certain that itÂ’s totally genuine but the probability is high and if the collection was published you know for certain that the sword was not produced by some crook yesterday at least. A Type II Error is when you buy the sword which is then fake, i.e. you fail to reject the alternative hypothesis that the sword is a fake. That could be a situation where you get hoodwinked by a disreputable dealer who tells you a tale. Your final decision would probably be influenced by degree of aversion to fakes, the condition of the sword, its provenance, and the price. If the price was right you might risk buying a sword with some uncertain provenance if its condition was attractive and you were not fanatic that the sword absolutely must be genuine. If the latter is of outmost importance you would be prepared to pay up for that certainty or accept relic items in poor condition.

[serdar]

Its very hard to be certain in anything, but i focused on acquiring from old collections and published pieces, but that is hard to find and caries very high price tag, similar as with old paintings.

Im now deciding on venetian infantry swords, from old collection, but blades got no marks (which is normal but rare, but im not 100%, everything seems ok, but marks would be a cherry on the cream on the cake 😁 )

Do you got experience with 15/ century venetian infantry swords maybe?

[serdar]

Im deciding on those venetian infantry, if you know maybe someting about them, everything is as it should be, they are peened right, but no markings (which is normal, but less desired) and on crossguard they dont have usual italian stripes, i dont know how to better say about those stripes.

[Victrix]

I think Mark Twain wrote that the only thing certain in life are death and taxes. Very hard to know for sure that swords are original. But you seem to do very well and catching on quickly. I’m just a history buff who likes to collect as a personal hobby, so I have no professional expertise from museum work. Those Venetian swords look good. I guess on the South Eastern side of the Adriatic they used almost any blades they could get their hands on. Schiavonas have all kinds of blades, not only Italian made. Sometimes the blades were changed. Sometimes the swords were used for generations and refurbished when needed. It’s hard to see properly but the grips seem refurbished? The blade on the left has decorations some say are like rosaries which are used to keep track of Roman Catholic prayers (Ave Maria, etc) so presumably the blades were predominantly used in Catholic countries like Spain and Italy. The blade on the right could be Italian with those fullers, but I read some posts that Kaskara blades in North Africa look quite similar. Maybe some of our members can exclude this possibility in this case. As always, not easy to see and judge from photos.

[serdar]

Victrix[/QUOTE

You are right, yes schiavonas are world for them, baskets are usualy made in Italy, but lots of them are made in Dalmatia, and have bosancica, or croatian cirilic names of smiths on them.
For blades they used apsolutely everything.

Left blade indeed looks like rosary, and right blade i similar to kaskara but in hand is very diferent, there are records in Dubrovnik archives of bladesmith who worked for venetian republic and made that kind of blades with 3 and four fullers, those files are earlies that mention name due spadi schiavonesca from 14 century, S shaped schiavonesca sword.

Unfortunately, nothing is 100%, i would like for those blades to have punches or marks, but i know that lots of them are not marked, by my feel and experience till now im 99% sure they are genuine, they are also publicised in italy, and are now in first quarter of the next year planed for exibition and catalog, allso they are from well known old collection, but for the amount they cost, 100% is needed.

As is in life, one must decide and has a final word, and bears all the consequences.
So by the words of the Kramer, Rock on! 😁

[serdar]

😁