Peter Munsten and family

[urbanspaceman]

Gentlemen… let me first address the issue of the Cutlers Company - again referring to Tom Girtin and his 'Mark of the Sword' internal history of that organisation:
"It was a many sided business, defined as the making of 'swords, daggers, rapiers, hangers, wood-knives, pen-knives, razors, surgeons' instruments, skeynes, hilts, pommels, battle-axes, halberds, etc…' – but it was not so straightforward as that. Bladesmiths made the blades, hafters the handles, sheathers the sheaths or scabbards. It was the trade of the cutlers to put the various parts together and to sell them."
Of course there were also gold and silversmiths involved, plus furbours. But of them all it was the bladesmiths that were the most important; they were a separate mistery from the Cutlers and long remained so.
Henry VIII was almost exclusively interested in the Greenwich armour output. It appears we are right Triari, and Greenwich wasn't noted for its swordblade output – but 'London' was!
The Cutlers Co. desperately tried to prevent Huguenots from taking jobs from the city's local bladesmiths but didn't succeed. They failed to achieve "enter, search and seize" powers numerous times, so we can find a lot of unknown foreign smiths' products often lost in the general scheme of things. I am certain many members will be aware of odd names attended by 'London' kicking around.
Unfortunately for the Cutlers Co. they had nowhere near the amount of power and influence they would have liked but that wasn't why the Hounslow location was chosen.
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Benjamin Stone is a perfect example of this who, despite the Cutlers Company's attempts to control him, simply sidestepped them and dealt directly with the Crown as he was supplying complete swords, scabbards and belts in the thousands from his workers in Hounslow a lot cheaper than the Cutlers Co. who were paying through the nose for imported blades a lot of the time.
The entire issue of controlling German imports was to protect the 'English' locals, but Stone constantly admonished the Cutlers Co. for using substandard Birmingham blades, with fake markings, when he had thousands of pounds invested in all the complete swords and accesories the Tower could want. It wasn't an accident that he followed the King to Oxford taking most of his German contractors with him.
The hilarious issue of the Germans teaching the English the secrets of the trade began with Greenwich and was used many times to give weight to the importing of Germans - forever after. The exodus of German workers from Solingen was not a local crime; revealing their secrets was!
Jim! Re. LA:
I lived in Topanga Canyon; my sister in Yorba Linda; it would take me an hour and a half to drive home from Sunday dinner back in the 'eighties, when traffic was minimal; yet it was all known generally as Los Angeles. You are so right there. You were in Orange County right? You will appreciate what I am saying, but Hounslow, while spitting distance from Windsor Castle, was only part of London to outsiders. If you've ever driven back and forth from Heathrow airport you will appreciate that as well.
You raise another important issue Jim when you talk about Koln: Solingen was, for centuries, referred to as Prussia, but it was actually part of The Holy Roman Empire and a Catholic city – and still is – yet strangely enough welcomed 30,000 Huguenots on the run from the French kings' relentless persecution.
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Thought I'd better keep it brief as well!

[Jim McDougall]

LOL! Keith.......yeah but yours IS briefer.

I see what you mean about Hounslow only being part of London to outsiders, regional distinctions were typically only important to people living in the actual environment.
Yes, I was 'County' as Orange County is known, which does not specify what actual city you lived in or were from.

When reaching the county line to LA County, that demarcation was usually the turnaround point for county guys. ....things were a bit unhealthy past that point.....I think of Columbus' maps, end of the earth etc.

If I recall, on Hounslow, was that not in the same manner a sort of remoter, industrial area troubled by highwaymen and ner do well types? It seems like one of the notorious highwaymen of the times was known there, though perhaps later period.

Regarding the import of German workers, it was not just Greenwich, later Hounslow and other countries, France, Russia, Sweden, Netherlands that had Solingen workers.

[Triarii]

Urban Spaceman - I know Stone was involved in getting the Hounslow works up and running at scale, though it was Heyden who got the German smiths over from Rotterdam. Was the Hounslow site purely chosen because of the existing mills and the convenience of Northumberland's 'Cutt river'?

Jim - good point on names. When Charles' army stopped at Turnham Green to face Essex's army and the London Trained Bands, those outside London referred to it as 'London', though it was 6 or 7 miles outside. Brentford, oddly, was identified as such when there was a small battle there.

[urbanspaceman]

Good question Triari. General knowledge appears to indicate the suitability of the (originally 4,000 acre) location as an army camp-ground, certainly dating back to Roman occupation times.
The Cut river was a man-made canal built to supply the Duke of Northumberland's Syon House. In 1639 Jenkes attempted to gain permission from the Duke (the original letter is in Alnwick Castle) to build a mill using the Cut for power. NB: Jenkes (who was working for Stone at the time) also mentions secret machines and typically promises to teach us Limeys the craft.
In regard to Stone: his story is told by both parties quite differently. The only sticking point (oops) is just how much smuggling of blades was involved... it may not have been anything. If Oley could supply 21,000 blades pa, and he was the only bladesmith, then I am certain Stone could have matched that quite comfortably; the Hounslow marked blades that included the Passau Wolf may easily have been marked by the local Germans... who were more than entitled to so do. A Munsten blade is a Munsten blade - regardless of where it was forged, save perhaps for the quality of the ore.

[urbanspaceman]

James II (present, as indicated by the viewing platform) is marshaling his troops to intimidate Parliament. There are various countrys' flags adding insult to injury.
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