A koummya- and contexts

[kahnjar1]

Jim....I note your comment above about the scabbard being decorated both sides......I can tell you that these knives were often worn by the Berber on a baldrick over the shoulder (see Page 7 of Pertinax book) rather than tucked in a belt or clothing, so both sides of the scabbard would be visible. This is why most have rings both sides of the scabbard neck. It would seem to me that if these were NOT used as a weapon, the Berber would not bother with them. The other thing is that IF they were not used, but rather worn as a status symbol, then the blades would be of low quality as they would not be visible.
Most blades seem to be of quite good, to very good quality, and feature the 1/3 2/3 double edge. Ideal as a stabbing weapon.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Understood Stu, and frankly I prefer that perspective
I have seen these with cords I presume woven of wool? and as you note over the shoulder. These really are very attractive daggers! In some of the examples Ive seen in some examples in earlier threads, the inside of the scabbard is 'blank', is there a distinction in those cases or simply a matter of makers preference?

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Understood Stu, and frankly I prefer that perspective
I have seen these with cords I presume woven of wool? and as you note over the shoulder. These really are very attractive daggers! In some of the examples Ive seen in some examples in earlier threads, the inside of the scabbard is 'blank', is there a distinction in those cases or simply a matter of makers preference?

Probably the latter but who would know.
Stu

[RobT]

Kahnjar 1,
Whether or not they fit the definition of “true” quillons, the typical projections at the base of a koummya serve to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the hilt on a thrust. I am rather amazed that you have seen more examples that, like Jim’s, don’t have this feature than do because, of the 30 koummya in my collection, all have the necessary projections. I would also point out that the overwhelming majority of koummya examples posted on this forum, have these projections. This makes sense. The koummya is a cut and thrust weapon and the thrust is the most deadly as it results in quick death by internal bleeding or slow death by sepsis. No actual fighting knife or sword in the world that is intended for thrusting in actual combat lacks some way to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the blade on impact.
As you noted, the koummya was worn on a baldric. The baldric was slung over the right shoulder and the blade was suspended at the left hip area (hence the name jambiya). However, the djellaba, the typical Moroccan male attire which was very loose fitting, would largely obscure any sheath and hilt decoration worn close to the body. Save for one example, all the koummya in my collection that have decoration on the “body” side are far more simply decorated than the side that is fully visible. The one example noted is very sparsely decorated on both sides and has other anomalies that make me suspect that it was made outside of the Moroccan culture.
I don’t think that the quality of European trade blades necessarily correlates with functional weapon status. Mechanized industrial methods would allow the Europeans to easily produce blades of higher quality than could be achieved by the African village blacksmith competition. If these more attractive European blades were offered at a price point reasonably close to those offered by the village blacksmiths, buyers would naturally choose them even though the functionality of the rest of the ensemble was questionable. This would be especially true if the buyer didn’t expect to have to use the weapon in combat. As an example from our own culture, how many SUVs are bought with any thought of taking them off road? Furthermore, how many of those SUVs are fitted with rims and low profile tires that would make it impossible to take them off road?

Jim McDougall,
I have seen baldrics of both wool and cotton. I suspect the wool ones are older but it may be that the cotton ones just wore out and were discarded as the knives made their way out of the culture.

Sincerely,
RobT

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by RobT

Kahnjar 1,
Whether or not they fit the definition of “true” quillons, the typical projections at the base of a koummya serve to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the hilt on a thrust. I am rather amazed that you have seen more examples that, like Jim’s, don’t have this feature than do because, of the 30 koummya in my collection, all have the necessary projections. I would also point out that the overwhelming majority of koummya examples posted on this forum, have these projections. This makes sense. The koummya is a cut and thrust weapon and the thrust is the most deadly as it results in quick death by internal bleeding or slow death by sepsis. No actual fighting knife or sword in the world that is intended for thrusting in actual combat lacks some way to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the blade on impact.
As you noted, the koummya was worn on a baldric. The baldric was slung over the right shoulder and the blade was suspended at the left hip area (hence the name jambiya). However, the djellaba, the typical Moroccan male attire which was very loose fitting, would largely obscure any sheath and hilt decoration worn close to the body. Save for one example, all the koummya in my collection that have decoration on the “body” side are far more simply decorated than the side that is fully visible. The one example noted is very sparsely decorated on both sides and has other anomalies that make me suspect that it was made outside of the Moroccan culture.
I don’t think that the quality of European trade blades necessarily correlates with functional weapon status. Mechanized industrial methods would allow the Europeans to easily produce blades of higher quality than could be achieved by the African village blacksmith competition. If these more attractive European blades were offered at a price point reasonably close to those offered by the village blacksmiths, buyers would naturally choose them even though the functionality of the rest of the ensemble was questionable. This would be especially true if the buyer didn’t expect to have to use the weapon in combat. As an example from our own culture, how many SUVs are bought with any thought of taking them off road? Furthermore, how many of those SUVs are fitted with rims and low profile tires that would make it impossible to take them off road?

Jim McDougall,
I have seen baldrics of both wool and cotton. I suspect the wool ones are older but it may be that the cotton ones just wore out and were discarded as the knives made their way out of the culture.

Sincerely,
RobT

You appear to say in your first post here that the koummya is not a useful fighting weapon, and yet above you say it is.
Your point is taken that those with no "quillons" are likely to do the user more harm than good. Yes I agree that many DO have the flaired grip but equally many do not, and YES some blades are of poor quality, but then many are also very good. So at least we seem to agree that the koummya is a fighting weapon and not just a piece of bling to be worn to impress.
Stu

[Marc M.]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

You appear to say in your first post here that the koummya is not a useful fighting weapon, and yet above you say it is.
Your point is taken that those with no "quillons" are likely to do the user more harm than good. Yes I agree that many DO have the flaired grip but equally many do not, and YES some blades are of poor quality, but then many are also very good. So at least we seem to agree that the koummya is a fighting weapon and not just a piece of bling to be worn to impress.
Stu

I agree that in the past the koumiya was a weapon and not just an ornament. As in many cultures, the richer the higher the quality of an object such as the koumiya. It doesn't help that the koumiya has been made for the tourist industry for many decades, often scabbard and handle are of a decent quality and usually with a negligible blade.

Regards
Marc

[Pertinax]

Khanjar in Oman and the Middle East, Jambiya in Yemen, Kummiya in Morocco are elements of the national male costume. In the past, men wore it every day, and today it is usually worn at most official and social events, such as national holidays and weddings.

In some countries, teenage boys receive their first dagger if they have been circumcised.

Daggers were a symbol of regional or tribal identification, thus becoming a distinctive sign of belonging to a certain ethnic group.

Regarding the identification and division of daggers into "tourist" and "combat" is a very complex question.

A simple example: two absolutely identical kummiyas are sold at the bazaar. One was bought by a local resident and began to wear it every day, and the second was bought by a tourist and taken to his country and placed in a collection. How to identify the kummiya in the collection in this case?

[werecow]

Originally Posted by RobT

No actual fighting knife or sword in the world that is intended for thrusting in actual combat lacks some way to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the blade on impact.

Just because I like being a contrarian.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by werecow

Just because I like being a contrarian.

(Me too.)

Ah, but on that square section thrust only cane sword blade, it doesn't matter if your hand slides down, as the blade won't cut butter. It'd poke easily completely thru its fleshy target, so your hand wouldn't slide much.

I have a couple cane swords that DO have sharp-edged 'cutting' blades, but they're more like rapier blades, and wouldn't sever any limbs (or digits). Even those, the blade bends on impact rather than being stiff enough to enable your hand to slide down. The sharp bits are there to ensure a wide wound channel that will debilitate the victim quicker, and also can be used for annoying flic cuts to the face/hands/arms.

Koummiyah, and most jambiyah appear to be designed to be used edge down, like a Filipino ginunting, the big brother further east which is still issued and used by their marines in jungle encounters with the Moros. I've seen & posted Saudi's from the Asir regions dancing and play fighting with their own large dharia knives like that, point curving down, not up, like europeans would think. The koummiyahs just seem to more distinctly differentiate by having just a rudimentary short false edge on the outside of the curve.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by kronckew

(Me too.)

Ah, but on that square section thrust only cane sword blade, it doesn't matter if your hand slides down, as the blade won't cut butter. It'd poke easily completely thru its fleshy target, so your hand wouldn't slide much.

True, although as you note, they aren't all like that. I have this sword cane/measuring stick below (side note: it has marks for each centimeter and decimeter on the wood and measures exactly 1m), which has more of a dress sword or very light spadroon blade. It's not razor sharp and clearly isn't capable of heavy cutting, but it does have an edge.

Obviously, these are a bit of an exception, and I don't want to derail the thread.