Afghan Shashkas

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by ariel

You are all correct, of course, to note the more ancient penetrations of Caucasian weapon traditions into Central Asia. The old Uzbeki swords are very reminescent of Shashkas, but there is a crucial difference: the "eared" pommels appear later in the development. This was, most likely, the most direct influence of the Caucasian Shashka (in it's Russian Imperial Cossack mutation) on the Central Asian swords. That's what I was talking about and these are the examples I showed. Lebedynsky calls them Pseudo-shashkas not for nothing!
I would love to get my hands on a really old Uzbeki sword, both in it's Shamshir and Shashka -like varieties, but to call them rare would be an understatement of the century: most were destroyed by the Russians when they occupied Central Asia first in the 1860-70s and when they suppressed the nationalist Basmach movement in the 1920s.

hi , there was actualy an uzbek site that pictured many old uzbek weaponry,, i think it was some form of government site,,
it had some pictures of uzbek amour and swords, including several older shashkas,,
some rather broad and curved in the blade, almost like some of the mongol and tarta swords,,
handles lookde as wood or horn, riveted,,
actualy in centeral asia these tiems are not that uncommon , , just hard to find , there is not much antiques bussiness in these areas , some amny times these items are kept in peopels homes, and many times not properly cared for,, or they are in huge state stokpiles of museam articles,,
ive seen some uzbek sheilds and lances for sale,, looked as greek style almost,, round and painted with emblems,, nicely made,, and good condition for there age,, which makes suspect theft form a museam ...

[ariel]

Can you give the address of the Uzbeki site as well as of other Central Asian or caucasian sites?

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by ariel

Can you give the address of the Uzbeki site as well as of other Central Asian or caucasian sites?

hi , ill see if i can find it , it was about 4 years ago i saw it .... theres not many actualy ,, i know of some government type ethnic folk art pages,, ill see what i can find , ok,,

[ausjulius]

ok , couldint find the museam page.. but still heres some pics of some stuff,
http://intangiblenet.freenet.uz/en/kaz/kaz3211.htm
http://intangiblenet.freenet.uz/en/uzb/uzb3211.htm
http://intangiblenet.freenet.uz/en/kir/kir3211.htm
http://intangiblenet.freenet.uz/en/tur/tur3211.htm

uzbek knife, pichok
http://knifefoto.narod.ru/fmexican.htm
http://www.iranian.com/Arts/2001/March/Tajik/knife.html

http://search.stores.ebay.com/Centra...aselZ129243852
theses a guy on ebay selling them , theyer made form decent carbon steel , but not worth 40$ us ,, thjere is actualy a factory which makes them , i think also in kazakhstan , onetime or another they had a web address :P
sorry didnt have time to finde anything decent , when i do ill post it,

[ariel]

Ausjulius, where have you been all these years?!!!!
You are a treasure of information!
Are these weapons historically accurate? Kazakh sabers appear to have Tibetan motives (pommels, for example). One Turkmen sword (apparently, a museum piece) looks very Chinese.
I looked at the Amazon.com for the Atlas of Central Asian arts, Bishkek, 2002 (apparently multivolume) and could not find it.
Can you get it for me? Just let me know the price of the books and shipment to the US and I shall send you a check or Paypal it right away.
Any way to get my hands on the really old swords/daggers?
You can send me a Private Message.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ausjulius, where have you been all these years?!!!!
You are a treasure of information!
Are these weapons historically accurate? Kazakh sabers appear to have Tibetan motives (pommels, for example). One Turkmen sword (apparently, a museum piece) looks very Chinese.
I looked at the Amazon.com for the Atlas of Central Asian arts, Bishkek, 2002 (apparently multivolume) and could not find it.
Can you get it for me? Just let me know the price of the books and shipment to the US and I shall send you a check or Paypal it right away.
Any way to get my hands on the really old swords/daggers?
You can send me a Private Message.

.. i guss i was in dagestan..:P
yes they are accurate , the kazakh folk general used swords like that of the mongols and altai and tuvan folks,
although there is 3 hornds of kazakhs, each alittle different, and kazakhstan is a multi ethnic nation, meaning that not only are there many different peopel living in kazakhstan now,, (russians , koreans, germans , baltics, tatars,, dagestani nationals , chechens,, jews,,, tajiks,, uzkeks,, russian cossaks,, ect ect ,)
but there is also a big variation in the national look of the poeple , some will looks more as europeans , some more as poepls form afghansitan or tajikistan , others may look like a mongol or siberian but be blond haired and blue eyed (aspecialy with the mongol kazakhs,, which many are blond,, aspecialy when theyer kids.)
so there is quite a variation in the folk,,
this sword would be form east kazakhstan , , in the west the swords are more russian/cuacascian , shashkas, shamshir and such,, and in the north part very much as swords of the tartas and uralic folks ,
there is a large percent of kazaks in what is not china and also about 300000 in mongolia,,
the sword looks in a style of this , this type of decoration was and is common on many kazakh items , as in the style of the mongols,, ill post you a pic of whats labled as a "sword sharpener" but it looks to me like a cercumsision ,, this holds to this type of decoration, it is from kazakhstan by the look
http://www.bathantiquesonline.com/an...ble-27139.html

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ausjulius, where have you been all these years?!!!!
You are a treasure of information!
Are these weapons historically accurate? Kazakh sabers appear to have Tibetan motives (pommels, for example). One Turkmen sword (apparently, a museum piece) looks very Chinese.
I looked at the Amazon.com for the Atlas of Central Asian arts, Bishkek, 2002 (apparently multivolume) and could not find it.
Can you get it for me? Just let me know the price of the books and shipment to the US and I shall send you a check or Paypal it right away.
Any way to get my hands on the really old swords/daggers?
You can send me a Private Message.

regarding the chinese looking sword, id say it is actualy chinese or made to sell to chinese,, these poeople were moving around much in the 19th centuary and these items were either radied of the chinese or even sold to them in east turkmenistan the sity of yangasari is a knife city,, there in pre chinese times .. before 1950,, there was many sword makers many of these guys were fighting the japanese and the chinese and the russians and all sorts of internal conflicts and thye had been doing this for the last 1000snds of years,,
so allsorts of items were captured ,, many times when one group was attacked and chaised form there grazing pastures they would flee some distance untill they found another place to graze there animals,, sometimes traveling 100s of kilometers,, or more,
so form east turkmenistan and inner mongolia it was not far to travel to uzbekistan or kazahkstan,, there is many uzbeks in east turkmenistan aswell as kirgiz, mongols, kazakhs and tajiks, and even afew tatars and russians ,,
so id say this was a one of thin , maybe the man who made it had lived in china proper and later when making a sword decided to make it in a chinese style,,


regarding the book , ill have a look for you , but it may not be in english ,,
still normaly you can get them with a small english subtext,,

[ariel]

Ya govoryu i chitayu po-russki.
S privetom.