A keraton (?) keris in east javanese dress, where is the blade from?

[Wijaya34]

Hello everyone, I recently acquired this keris of unknown origin. The ivory hilt and sheath is in East Javanese style, adorned with what appears to be gold paint and kemalo. The blade's origins is unclear; the pamor resembles that of Javanese keris, but the greneng and overall gagah look of the blade suggest a Balinese influence.

[David]

It's a lovely blade, but i see nothing that would necessarily identify this keris as a keraton blade.
I believe this hilt is Cirebon, or at least North Jawa, not East Jawa. I can't tell much about the wrongko from the photos beyond the damage.
My thoughts on this blade is that it is contemporary work. I don't think it was made in Bali, but the smith may have had Balinese blades in mind. Though when we look at old Javanese blades from the Banten era we see a similar ricikan and pawakan that is clearly not Balinese. Of course this keris is not Banten, but that may have been the look the smith was going for.

[Sajen]

I would completely agree with David!

Wijaya will think that the red paint is a sign for the keraton origin. Is this true? I doubt that the parts belong originally together!

Can we see pictures from the beautiful hilt?

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

This is not an opinion, what follows is only comment based upon feeling.

The blade is not stylistically Javanese. It might be recent Madura work but if so the craftsman has not been consistent in expression of characteristics.

The hilt & selut has the feeling of Sumatera, not Jawa.

The wrongko does not appear to be original to the blade.

Over the last few months I have seen similar combinations that are, to say the least, confusing for me, this is especially true of the hilt/selut combination.

Again:- the above is NOT opinion, it is an expression of feelings. In this case I could not form an opinion unless I handled the item under discussion, & perhaps not even then.

Whoever put this keris together was trying very hard.

[David]

Just to be clear i wasn't suggesting the style of this keris is Javanese. My comparison to Banten keris was simply to point out that many people look at those and mistake them for Balinese keris as well. Alan, though you haven't actually given an opinion, i believe your suggestion of a possible Madura origin is very possible.
There is a prominent collector on another page where this discussion is taking place who has posted the following in regards to this keris: "This is a very high quality East Javanese, I would say, Madurese Keris, before 1870, possibly even before 1850. Around 10 years ago a blade, very possibly by the same maker, was auctioned in UK."
Personally i am finding it difficult to see this blade as a 19th century piece. The materials just don't look right for that era and it seems very well preserved for that age.
As for the hilt, as Detlef has requested, it would be nice to see some detailed photos of it. I am not seeing Sumatra in this hilt as Alan is, but i did see some other angles on the other site where this has been presented and i found much more in common with North Jawa than i do with Sumatran hilts. Regardless it is a beautiful jereran and deserves a nicer showing so if you could take a few closer shots from a few angles that would be great, thanks!

[A. G. Maisey]

As I have commented, as you have recognised, David, I cannot give an opinion, just comments.

So here is another comment:- I have yet to see any Javanese hilt or selut that has similar design elements to the hilt & selut on this keris. The fluted body of the hilt is something I cannot recall from anywhere, the stiff, tense execution is something that I'm more used to seeing in recent hilts, rather than in older ones, the selut is quite similar to some Sumatran styles, the gold selut looks like good quality modern gold plate, not gilding. To my eye there is nothing I can see in this hilt that would cause me to align it with anything I have previously seen, except perhaps the demon's head.

I simply cannot form an opinion, maybe I'm just too cynical, too doubting, but when I see something I cannot align with things I have seen, & when that something clearly wants to be taken seriously as a quality item, only parts of which have seen hard times, I tend to rely on feelings. In this case my feelings are that I'd like to hold it in my hand before I committed to any firm opinion.

[Wijaya34]

Here is a very similar keris i found in the museum nasional, looks like madurese made too. Any thoughts on this one?

[Wijaya34]

Some closer pictures of the hilt and selut

[David]

Alan, i wonder if you have any further feelings on this hilt now that better photos have been provided. Selut aside i don't believe i have ever seen anything like this on a Sumatran keris. It does appear to have some age to it.
Hilt origins also aside, it is a beautifully carved piece of work and i'd love to understand where it might be from.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Alan, i wonder if you have any further feelings on this hilt now that better photos have been provided.

Hello David,

Where you see better photos of the hilt?

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

[QUOTE=Sajen;294450]Hello David, Where you see better photos of the hilt?/QUOTE]

There was a short video detailing this hilt on a post about this keris on a keris facebook page.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I have not seen this FB video.

I do not do FB, I was very briefly a member, then FB became too intrusive, and I was unable to see any plus factors at all in continuing with FB, I cannot look at FB content.

What I said about Sumatera was:-

"The hilt & selut has the feeling of Sumatera, not Jawa."


I've never seen something like this from Sumatera either, but the selut is quite similar to some Sumatran seluts and the hilt itself has echoes of some Sumatran hilts. The fluting on the hilt I cannot recall having seen anywhere.

Yes, it does appear to have some age, but false patina & a bit of dirt is not at all difficult to produce. To my eye, the carving of the hilt, although very competent, does not flow, it looks stiff.

The operative word in all my posts to this thread is "feeling".

I am not stating opinions, I'm looking at pictures and I am not feeling anything I can associate with Jawa, but I am feeling that all the parts of this complete keris are from different origins.

The hilt is a problem, so if I run through all of the possibilities I cannot recall anything quite like this that I have ever come across, not a picture in a book, not online, not in a museum collection, not in a private collection, not with a dealer, & not amongst the 800 or so hilts that I have myself. And this hilt is well carved. Surely there must be something similar around somewhere? But I have yet to see it.

As I have said:- feeling, not opinion.

I am absolutely open to being shown that this complete keris genuinely old & definitely from a single --- or even multiple --- geographic points of origin.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

There was a short video detailing this hilt on a post about this keris on a keris facebook page.

Hello David,

Like Alan, I don't use FB! So it would be great when Wijaya provides some pictures here at the forum so that the members here who don't use FB can have a look at the nice hilt.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

That's OK Alan, you don't need to see the video on FB since Wijaya has provide us with more detailed photos that should give us most of what we need to see. (These photos might have still been in Moderation when you made you last comment so scroll back up and have a look )
Like you the fluted body leaves me scratching my head as well. I have also never seen this before. The fanged face and the long hair down the back however seem to place this hilt in the category of Buta/Raksasa hilts. I can't say that i have seen this form in Sumatran hilts. If we just l look at the head and way the face is carved and ignore the fluted body for a second it is hard for me not to be put in mind of the more upright variety of these Buta hilts found in North Jawa/Cirebon. But i agree that the rest of the hilt creates a lot of confusion. Regardless, even if a bit stiff, the hilt is artistically carved and well executed. I suppose it is possible that it artificially aged modern creation, but it doesn't feel that way to me. I do believe that we both have the same "feeling" though that all parts of this keris have come from different origins, This surely is a keris that needs to be examined first hand in order to come to any conclusions and even then it could well remain a mystery.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, the hilt you have shown is absolutely typical of North Coast Jawa through into East Jawa, I've got some of these myself.

To me, the carving of Wijaya's hilt, although very good, displays a hodgepodge of styles:-

there is the demon face, not problem to fit this into Nth. Coast & East Jawa, then we have the lung-lungan (vine-like) enhancements, we can see similar --- not the same, but similar --- in Central Jawa hilts, the fluting is from way out the ballpark, don't have any idea at all where it might have come from. Sri Lanka rings a bell, & yeah, go back far enough there are records of keris in Sri Langka, and South India too for that matter.

The selut looks as if the carver had it in his hand when he was carving the hilt, it does not look like a later addition, it looks like it has been there from day one.

The whole thing is confusing.

There is always the possibility that we are looking at something that was made to the directions of owner, not following an established pattern, but incorporating acceptable elements. Might well be a one off.

But when was it made? I sure cannot tell from a photo on a computer screen. Maybe I could not tell at all.

I was flimflamed once --- around 35 years ago --- by a very well known dealer in Surabaya, superb Bali ivory hilt, it took me more than 20 years before I learnt that this dealer employed a craftsman who was able to produce superb work, & the dealer himself had mastered ivory patination & aging. If anybody at all looked at it right now there is no way that it could be picked as a forgery. Its that good.

Thus:- I often doubt --- especially where money is involved.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have yet to see any Javanese hilt or selut that has similar design elements to the hilt & selut on this keris. The fluted body of the hilt is something I cannot recall from anywhere, the stiff, tense execution is something that I'm more used to seeing in recent hilts, rather than in older ones, the selut is quite similar to some Sumatran styles, the gold selut looks like good quality modern gold plate, not gilding. To my eye there is nothing I can see in this hilt that would cause me to align it with anything I have previously seen, except perhaps the demon's head.

May I ask a few remedial follow up questions about the feelings this piece gives? Do you think the fluted body is related to the drapery folds on some Madurese donorikko hilts or 18th century European sword hilts?

The selut style that is Sumatran is the granulation not the shape? This patten of granulations is often combined with pierced work, correct?

Age wise for the hilt are we thinking late 19th century if older Post 1950 or post 1980 if not? The selut is post 1980?

In any cast it is a very fetching keris, even if it is "stiff".

[A. G. Maisey]

1) I have not considered any reasons for the hilt being fluted, I have only noted that it is fluted and that this characteristic not one that I have previously seen.

2) The form & execution of the selut bears similarities some seluts that can be attributed to Sumatera. I cannot determine how the perceived granulation pattern was created in the absence of physical examination.

3) The hilt has been well carved, the blade is competent, the scabbard is beyond repair. As for it being attractive, for me, no it is not, for others it may be.

[Gustav]

A couple of pictures - two of the original Keris from auction house in France, before being cleaned. As we see, the scabbard is a perfect fit, contrary to the remark "The wrongko does not appear to be original to the blade".

Also two pictures of a blade, which was auctioned in UK about ten years ago. I would say, both blades are stylistically very close.

Regarding the fluted body - the idea of it comes from an Majapahit architectural element, which does live forth in Pasisir hilts. The original thought of this architectural element quite possibly is banyan tree trunk. The meaning of hilt and related Pasisir hilts thus could be a spiritual entity, which resides in a banyan tree - a very common idea in Indonesia.

[David]

Gustav, thanks for the additional images and your ideas on this fluted trunk. I can also see this theme to a certain extent in this East Jawa hilt in Jean's hilt book.
Regarding the wrongko, while this blade may well have been adapted to this sheath i must say that i would have expected a different fit to accommodate the gonjo wilut of this blade. It rides a bit too high in the wrongko. But i will say than none of the images i have seen are really satisfactory enough to draw an firm opinion.

[Wijaya34]

A similar putra satu/buta hilt in my posession, also with a fluted body.

[Sajen]

Thank you Wijaya for posting this very similar Putra Satu hilt from your collection, a style I've never seen before so far I can remember and it seems that I am not the only one. And the gold selut seems to be original to your ivory (or is it deer horn or bone?) one. A great hilt for sure!

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Hmmm.

[David]

Wondering if anyone can give me some clarification regarding Buta Bajang vs Putra Satu hilts. Are both these hilts meant to be considered the same category of being? We used to refer to the Buta hilts as Raksasa, though that seems out of favour now. Raksasa are, of course, supposed to be giants or monsters. Buta Bajang hilts do indeed seem to be a demon form and most often feature fangs.
Alan you may be able to help better with the language here as i only have internet translators which are notoriously awful when it comes to Indonesian languages. But Buta Bajang seems to mean "Giant Boy" while Putra Satu seems to mean "One Son". I have seen many hilts identified as Putra Satu that do not have fangs. And by naming it as a "son" (family) i don't see the intention for it to be a demon. Are Putra Satu hilts supposed to also be demons (or giants/ogres) like Buta Bajang or are they a completely different category of beings? Also, the hilts i most often see identified as Putra Satu are more abstract and vegetal like this hilts are. So i am not sure i would have identified Wijaya's hilts as Putra Satu. Anyone have thoughts on this.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I have not ever given a great deal attention to the matter you would like to see clarified. I think that in face to face discussion we would normally stay with whatever name the first person who used a name, chose to use.

I am not at all certain that any one name is more correct than any other name.

In recent years, in relaxed conversation, in English, I think I tend to use "demon", if in BI I tend to use "raksasa". The raksasa term has been around forever & it applies if the face has fangs.

I never heard all these other names 30 & more years ago, but it seems that now we have more names for everything than we could ever desire.

Sort of reminds me a bit of what Pauzan said when "Insiklopedi" was published. The forerunner of "Insiklopedi" was "Insiklopedi Budaya" same idea, same author, but much smaller, much tighter, much less open to debate.

Pauzan said, freely translated "--- where did all these names come from? where did all this information come from? who told him this? who taught him? the first book was very good, it was put together with a team of knowledgeable, careful people, but this new one (Ensiklopedi) --- do we need it? ---"

I feel a bit like Pauzan sometimes, especially when I hear the thoughts & opinions of relatively inexperienced people (in Javanese terms) holding forth on what is & is not correct.

However, that said, I do have some references at home --- I'm not there right now --- when I get back I'll have a look & see if the reference works I have in mind might provide some sort of answer.