Keris Majapahit

nechesh · 14th July 2006, 09:42 PM

Agreed Tim. This type of keris has been shrouded in mystery for some time. Have you looked at the one's up on Alan's website?

Mudi · 15th July 2006, 01:56 AM

Pagi Pak Nechesh

Mixed marriage. I never think of that. Both parents Indonesian and nice brown skin! In Indonesia is normal for sons to follow father. My KTP identity card say Muslim for me. Permisi Pak no more to public discuss about religion. In warung we drink together kopi and talk religion OK. Boss forum say this. In Bali Hindu more way of life than religion. When I say Dutch friend I only mean ask person from Netherlands about our history. They have best museums about Indonesian culture.

Pusaka not about power. Pusaka mean what in English is word heirloom. Do you have book Art of Indonesia? The title of book is Art of Indonesia Pusaka and all in book from National Museum in Jakarta. We call this museum museum gajah because of big elephants out front this museum. In Java in Kraton pusaka kraton special ceremony and procession of pusaka for all to see. In Italy mona lisa still pusaka for people from Italy but on wall in museum Paris France. In Indonesia some pusaka with power and for use in ceremony kept private. This because fear to use power in not right way. Some lontar kept locked because information is dangerous if wrong person have this knowledge. This lontar more than pusaka.

I not worry to show keris. Keris is heart of Indonesia. If we keep all our keris away and not seen by other people from world around then they not learn about us and our culture. Some primitive culture believe photo can take power away. Some people in Indonesia still believe that. I do not believe that and like to show keris. I am teacher. For me good teacher mean he is good student and love to learn new thing. He so excited with what he learn that he want to tell others about that. Teacher is not to train student. That is job of instructor. A good teacher also learn from student. I believe all men teacher in some way. Indonesia founded on idea of unity in diversity. To make unity we must share our culture with our brothers. Brothers many Indonesians think all men brothers. I hope I explain OK.

nechesh · 15th July 2006, 06:10 AM

Pak Mudi, i commend you for your desire to teach and inform the world about Indonesian culture. Frankly i would much rather hear about your history from native Indonesians than from the Dutch, though it is true that they probably have the finest keris collections in the world in their museums. But the history of a people told by their conquerers and colonizers can often be misleading.

I think that pusaka has everything to do with power. On a royal level it deals with the power and right of rule amongst othe things. On lesser class levels it deals with the power of a kinship group, passed from generation to generation.
The Mona Lisa is NOT pusaka. One might look at it as a national treasure, but as you point out, which nation. DaVinci was Italian, yet it resides in the Louvre in France. I think at this point it has become such an icon that it can be considered a world treasure. But it is not the heirloom of any kinship group and does not serve the same purpose in Italian or world culture (if there is such a thing) as pusaka.
When the royal regala is presented in ceremony and there is a procession of teh royal pusaka you really don't believe this is about power? Possession of the royal regala asserts ones right to rule. This has everything to do with power.
The word pusaka is used in a number of ways in the description of keris and other heirloom items. For some it describes the quality of the keris. For others it is more personal. I have heard some people argue that only royal and court pieces can truly be considered pusaka. Others will argue that keris on any class level that are owned and passed down within any kinship group also qualify as pusaka. I tend to favor this second argument. If a keris is sitting on permanent display in a museum is it still serving it's purpose as a pusaka for anyone's kinship group? We call it pusaka in respect for it's past history or the incredible quality of it's workmanship, but hasn't it's chain of power been broken?

Mudi · 15th July 2006, 06:50 AM

I am sorry Pak Nechesh. Pusaka mean leave behind. Look kamus bahasa Indonesia. It mean heirloom and that all. Pusaka have nothing to do with power. If western way is to make more of word pusaka then OK but not the meaning in Indonesia. Some pusaka have power. Not all pusaka have power. Most pusaka have no power. I can only say about pusaka what I know and learn in my culture. Sorry again for this not understanding.

nechesh · 15th July 2006, 07:57 AM

Pak Mudi, translation of language is often inadequate. I have found translations for pusaka as "heirloom" and "legacy". You suggest that all it means is to "leave behind". None of these express the complexity of pusaka. The Western way of understanding this would be to just except it as "heirloom" as we understand it here in our culture. I believe pusaka implies more than that.
I think perhaps you are misunderstanding my use of the word "power". This is not to say that every keris pusaka has magickal powers, that it can do tricks, fly through the air or vanquish ones enemies. Power can be much more subtle than that. When any object is passed down from one generation to another it must accumulate the power generated by that kinship group, it's history, its aspirations and desires, its will to survive and prosper. To inherit these things is to be empowered by them. On the royal class level this power is perhap more tangible. We are now dealing with affairs of state, not just family. Of course a keris isn't just ANY object. It is created with great intention and treated with great respect, fed with oils and incense and prayers in the great hope of seeing these intentions come to pass. All of this is passed along with the keris pusaka from generation to generation with a general concensus within that particular kinship group that the keris pusaka holds this history and this energy. That, my friend, when passed from one generation to the next, is a transferrence of POWER.
I am sorry if i explained this inadequately before, but i hope you see my point clearer now.

Mudi · 15th July 2006, 08:39 AM

Pak Nechesh

Your words well done. Like music to me! I agree with all you say until you say

That, my friend, when passed from one generation to the next, is a transferrence of POWER.

It is not power that go from one generation to next. It is influence, reason, knowledge, enlightement and understanding that pass. Even old man working sawah can have this. If you say this is power then OK I understand. For me power mean control over other people. I think maybe we say same thing different way.

Thank you for what you write. I copy it and keep it. You say

To inherit these things is to be empowered by them.

Yes. That is true. Pusaka is something from history that we can see, touch and know to be alsi. With pusaka history is more than story. Pusaka make history live. Thank you again for so good words to say about pusaka.

Thank you also to call me friend. You are kind polite and patient. I think you lucky to have keris. I think keris with you happy also!

Mark · 15th July 2006, 02:58 PM

Keris threads are alway very difficult to moderate, because of the inseparable mystic element.

However, it is time for me to say clearly - this discussion is drifting too far off-topic. The debate about what is and what is not a pusaka, what can and cannot be done with a pusaka, heritage, religious preference, etc., etc., etc., is not only something that has been gone through uncountable times on the forum, but one that has consistently ended up in a flame war and/or bad feelings. No one on this forum should have to feel that they must defend their cultural or religious beliefs. Enough.

If anyone wants to learn about pusaka, search the word on the forum. You will get more than you can read.

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14th July 2006, 09:42 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Agreed Tim. This type of keris has been shrouded in mystery for some time. Have you looked at the one's up on Alan's website?

15th July 2006, 01:56 AM	#2
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Pagi Pak Nechesh Mixed marriage. I never think of that. Both parents Indonesian and nice brown skin! In Indonesia is normal for sons to follow father. My KTP identity card say Muslim for me. Permisi Pak no more to public discuss about religion. In warung we drink together kopi and talk religion OK. Boss forum say this. In Bali Hindu more way of life than religion. When I say Dutch friend I only mean ask person from Netherlands about our history. They have best museums about Indonesian culture. Pusaka not about power. Pusaka mean what in English is word heirloom. Do you have book Art of Indonesia? The title of book is Art of Indonesia Pusaka and all in book from National Museum in Jakarta. We call this museum museum gajah because of big elephants out front this museum. In Java in Kraton pusaka kraton special ceremony and procession of pusaka for all to see. In Italy mona lisa still pusaka for people from Italy but on wall in museum Paris France. In Indonesia some pusaka with power and for use in ceremony kept private. This because fear to use power in not right way. Some lontar kept locked because information is dangerous if wrong person have this knowledge. This lontar more than pusaka. I not worry to show keris. Keris is heart of Indonesia. If we keep all our keris away and not seen by other people from world around then they not learn about us and our culture. Some primitive culture believe photo can take power away. Some people in Indonesia still believe that. I do not believe that and like to show keris. I am teacher. For me good teacher mean he is good student and love to learn new thing. He so excited with what he learn that he want to tell others about that. Teacher is not to train student. That is job of instructor. A good teacher also learn from student. I believe all men teacher in some way. Indonesia founded on idea of unity in diversity. To make unity we must share our culture with our brothers. Brothers many Indonesians think all men brothers. I hope I explain OK.

15th July 2006, 06:10 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pak Mudi, i commend you for your desire to teach and inform the world about Indonesian culture. Frankly i would much rather hear about your history from native Indonesians than from the Dutch, though it is true that they probably have the finest keris collections in the world in their museums. But the history of a people told by their conquerers and colonizers can often be misleading. I think that pusaka has everything to do with power. On a royal level it deals with the power and right of rule amongst othe things. On lesser class levels it deals with the power of a kinship group, passed from generation to generation. The Mona Lisa is NOT pusaka. One might look at it as a national treasure, but as you point out, which nation. DaVinci was Italian, yet it resides in the Louvre in France. I think at this point it has become such an icon that it can be considered a world treasure. But it is not the heirloom of any kinship group and does not serve the same purpose in Italian or world culture (if there is such a thing) as pusaka. When the royal regala is presented in ceremony and there is a procession of teh royal pusaka you really don't believe this is about power? Possession of the royal regala asserts ones right to rule. This has everything to do with power. The word pusaka is used in a number of ways in the description of keris and other heirloom items. For some it describes the quality of the keris. For others it is more personal. I have heard some people argue that only royal and court pieces can truly be considered pusaka. Others will argue that keris on any class level that are owned and passed down within any kinship group also qualify as pusaka. I tend to favor this second argument. If a keris is sitting on permanent display in a museum is it still serving it's purpose as a pusaka for anyone's kinship group? We call it pusaka in respect for it's past history or the incredible quality of it's workmanship, but hasn't it's chain of power been broken?

15th July 2006, 06:50 AM	#4
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	I am sorry Pak Nechesh. Pusaka mean leave behind. Look kamus bahasa Indonesia. It mean heirloom and that all. Pusaka have nothing to do with power. If western way is to make more of word pusaka then OK but not the meaning in Indonesia. Some pusaka have power. Not all pusaka have power. Most pusaka have no power. I can only say about pusaka what I know and learn in my culture. Sorry again for this not understanding.

15th July 2006, 07:57 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pak Mudi, translation of language is often inadequate. I have found translations for pusaka as "heirloom" and "legacy". You suggest that all it means is to "leave behind". None of these express the complexity of pusaka. The Western way of understanding this would be to just except it as "heirloom" as we understand it here in our culture. I believe pusaka implies more than that. I think perhaps you are misunderstanding my use of the word "power". This is not to say that every keris pusaka has magickal powers, that it can do tricks, fly through the air or vanquish ones enemies. Power can be much more subtle than that. When any object is passed down from one generation to another it must accumulate the power generated by that kinship group, it's history, its aspirations and desires, its will to survive and prosper. To inherit these things is to be empowered by them. On the royal class level this power is perhap more tangible. We are now dealing with affairs of state, not just family. Of course a keris isn't just ANY object. It is created with great intention and treated with great respect, fed with oils and incense and prayers in the great hope of seeing these intentions come to pass. All of this is passed along with the keris pusaka from generation to generation with a general concensus within that particular kinship group that the keris pusaka holds this history and this energy. That, my friend, when passed from one generation to the next, is a transferrence of POWER. I am sorry if i explained this inadequately before, but i hope you see my point clearer now.

15th July 2006, 08:39 AM	#6
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Pak Nechesh Your words well done. Like music to me! I agree with all you say until you say That, my friend, when passed from one generation to the next, is a transferrence of POWER. It is not power that go from one generation to next. It is influence, reason, knowledge, enlightement and understanding that pass. Even old man working sawah can have this. If you say this is power then OK I understand. For me power mean control over other people. I think maybe we say same thing different way. Thank you for what you write. I copy it and keep it. You say To inherit these things is to be empowered by them. Yes. That is true. Pusaka is something from history that we can see, touch and know to be alsi. With pusaka history is more than story. Pusaka make history live. Thank you again for so good words to say about pusaka. Thank you also to call me friend. You are kind polite and patient. I think you lucky to have keris. I think keris with you happy also!

15th July 2006, 02:58 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Keris threads are alway very difficult to moderate, because of the inseparable mystic element. However, it is time for me to say clearly - this discussion is drifting too far off-topic. The debate about what is and what is not a pusaka, what can and cannot be done with a pusaka, heritage, religious preference, etc., etc., etc., is not only something that has been gone through uncountable times on the forum, but one that has consistently ended up in a flame war and/or bad feelings. No one on this forum should have to feel that they must defend their cultural or religious beliefs. Enough. If anyone wants to learn about pusaka, search the word on the forum. You will get more than you can read.