Flanking officer saber?

[Jim McDougall]

Good note on the rose, and it seems I have seen this someplace but as yet unable to retrieve....what is the Solingen connection with rose on blade spine?
As far as I have known the British placed makers names on spines in latter 18th through 19th, and some Austrian blades have them, as well of course as French.

Blade decoration using these kinds of motifs was by no means a Solingen distinction, and European blades in Eastern Europe often have profuse themes, with hussars, 'vivat pandour', panoplies of arms etc. As noted, Solingen often duplicated many of these along with their use of spurious markings.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good note on the rose, and it seems I have seen this someplace but as yet unable to retrieve....what is the Solingen connection with rose on blade spine?
As far as I have known the British placed makers names on spines in the latter 18th through 19th, and some Austrian blades have them, as well of course as French.

I don't think the significance of the rose is known yet, just that they appeared on Solingen-made blades around the late 18th Century and stopped showing up on blades around the 1820s when the style of cartouch on Solingen blades changed as well.

Some Rose marked blades have the maker or exporter logo in the cartouch, while others show just the cartouch.

Then again, the Rose is not always present on all Solingen blades either. J J Runkel had his name engraved on the spine, while one of my Dutch sabres has the Dutch cutler's name in its place. Smallsword blades don't seem to have it either, while I've seen it on spadroon blades.

There's a lot of variation in style as well, and we can say with confidence that the Solingen blade smiths were happy to change decoration to suit their buyers' tastes.

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted, the Solingen shops were masters at appeasing clientele and use of all manner of motif, marks, wording etc.
John Justus Runkel was a London based supplier who brought blades in from Solingen (I think from one family in particular, I think it was Neff) then applied his name to the blade spine, and sold them to cutlers.

In rechecking Seifert (1962) in the plate I do see the similarity between the 'carps tongue' and 'pandour' points, and these clipped points seem somewhat in between. I recall seeing French blades with these kinds of point (blade tip).

In the straight saber deemed a M1780 (not an official pattern) British which has a somewhat similar tip but more subdued. As the British used German blades so consistently, this one seemed Solingen though by this time the British were producing some blades.

* example 'e' Seifert I have seen termed 'quill point'.
the example with widened point (Persian) the feature is the 'yelman' which I was once told by a Polish fencing master/historian was referred to as 'the feather', but actually intended to add weight and momentum to the cut.

Still curious on this rose design on hilts, any other examples?

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

John Justus Runkel was a London based supplier who brought blades in from Solingen (I think from one family in particular, I think it was Neff) then applied his name to the blade spine, and sold them to cutlers.

According to Richard Daller in "British Cavalry Swords" Runkel had married into the Neff family. Certainly their mark has been found on the tang of some of the blades he sold.

Also, I suspect that Runkel imported his blades complete with his name and decoration on them. To engrave them himself would mean that he needed to reapply the blue and gilt again.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Still curious on this rose design on hilts, any other examples?

Do you mean on the spine? I'll start up another thread.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent, a great topic and its own thread a great move.

[cel7]

Thanks for your input! Very educational to discuss this.