Looking for information on Andres Martinez of Toledo

[fernando]

Meanwhile i have sent e-mail to two surces in Spain, to see whether they can untangle this Martinez knot ... but i am not sure if they ever answer .

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by fernando

Meanwhile i have sent e-mail to two surces in Spain, to see whether they can untangle this Martinez knot ... but i am not sure if they ever answer .

Fernando I cannot thank you enough! I have struggled to find any other mentions Andres Martinez or examples of his work so your help is immensely appreciated.

[10thRoyal]

I finally the sword in hand and am amazed at the balance of it and just how massive the guard is compared to the blade. I've attached better photos of the inscription for anyone who comes across an Andres Martinez blade in the future along with the anchor mark on the blade that was not previously shown.

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by fernando

Meanwhile i have sent e-mail to two surces in Spain, to see whether they can untangle this Martinez knot ... but i am not sure if they ever answer .

Good afternoon Fernando, did you ever hear back from those sources in Spain?

[fernando]

Nothing useful, i am afraid. One of them said that my reasoning on the fathers/sons sounded plausible but he was sorry not to be able to provide any further information.The other one, whom i had more expectations from, has never answered my email.
Sorry .

[urbanspaceman]

A fine blade is a valuable commodity, it is a product of those esoteric practices not common throughout a lot of history.
Fashioning a hilt was rarely fraught with difficulty, and consequently could be discarded and replaced at the whim of fashion and circumstance - as Jim said. This speaks volumes about trends in history.
I have two extremely fine rapier blades that have been converted to court-swords with very fancy hilts; for me, they are nearly as precious as my 1590s swept hilt, although nowhere-near as valuable on the commercial market.
It is all too easy to be caught up in the pedantic attitudes of some collectors.
The Arms and Armour Society presented a lecture this month on 'collectors and collecting' that was both poignant, amusing and precautionary, in that: "de gustibus non est disbutandum".
You should see the faces of coin collectors when they discover I clean my antique coins!
Fine Samurai swords are revered, and their condition is sacrosanct; why should the West be any different?
For me, a luxurious sword should reflect as much as possible of the quality and craftsmanship displayed when new. Munition's-grade battlefield swords are a different issue altogether though and are usually more inspiring when showing the patina of age and activity.
OK, I'm off my soap-box now.
ps
All this aside, your monster hilt looks amazing, regardless of its provenance.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Keith!

Always interested in Spanish swords, I could not resist tearing into very old files, and while not directly answering the questions in the OP (orig post) I found this material possibly salient in context.

from : "Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries, June 21,1900"
Vol XVIII, pp.206-215, by Baron Charles A. DeCosson.

DeCosson was one of the luminaries of early 20th century arms & armor study.

Discussing a sword with mock Arabic inscription and arms and badges of the Catholic Kings, with the inscription in the grooves,
PEDRO GARETA ME FECIT
"...when Count Valencia de Don Juan , our honorary fellow and director of the Madrid Armoury, examined this sword with me, he expressed the opinion that this blade was not of Toledan make and thought it might be German. It certainly has not the peculiar character of true Toledo blades, which to those well acquainted with them is unmistakeable. Besides which the name on it is not correctly spelt.
Rodriguez del Canto, fencing master of Madrid, in an unedited manuscript written in 1734, and entitled 'El Discipulo Instruido' gives a list of all the most celebrated blade smiths of Toledo with their marks. His list differs somewhat from that of Palomares so well known through having been printed in the catalog of the Armeria Real in 1849.
In R.del Cantos list we find a pedro de Garatea, who is no doubt the same master who is called Pedro de Lagaratea by Palomares. No blade signed in either of these ways is at present known. But his blades must have been famous to be imitated with the incorrect for Gareta.

From a careful examination of this blade and the similar one in my own sword, I think it is probable that they are both Italian, as are many professing to be of Toledan manufacture, notably all those inscribed Monte en Toledo which are imitations of those made by the Toledan master Belmonte or Velmonte. "


In an article by Abraham Lopez, "Alonso Perez, Sword Maker of Toledo'
it notes that Perez was one of the most prestigious artisans of late 16th c and worked as an officer in Toledo at shop of famed master Gil de Almau.

An important rapier was found on the well known shipwreck of the Nuestra Senora de Atocha (1622) off Florida. It was of course heavily encrusted but it was determined to be of Italian style, but with Toledo blade as commonly seen in Spain.

Attached is page showing the 'anchor' mark apparently associated with Perez and as seen on the blade of the sword here in OP.

[10thRoyal]

Looks like who he was may remain a mystery, but his lineage is honestly less important to me than knowing he was a swordsmith who exist in that period. Whether he was actually even from Toledo sounds like a completely different can of worms! I'll be hanging on to this piece for a good long while as it's my first "real" sword I've purchased so there will be plenty of time for new info to appear. Once again thank all of you for your willingness to share information.

[fernando]

This issue over (right or wrong) marriage of hilts to blades is in itself a vast subject, covering different angles. We know that a determined sword smith is generally known to be the one that forges the blade, and that's when the riddle starts. If in the one hand a (Toledan) smith had to pass an exam under the Guild inspection, where he had to show to be able to perform a few works relative to swords repairs, polishing, scabbards, grips, etc, for he had to pay twelve reales to contribute for the feast of Santiago and one hundred mararavedis in case he achieved his professional credentials. (Esperanza Pedraza Ruiz). This does not prevent that countless blades were forged and forwarded to specialists for the execution of other periphals for embelishment or in raw for exports; or obviously for replacements, both because the origialns were worn or the customer wanted something personalized.
Going back to our misterious Andres Martinez, once more we may witness the frustration of his 'anonymity', when not finding his name in the work of Don Enrique de Leguina (1897) among a zillion Martinez and their derivates.


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