Kocet-Kocetan hilt form

kai · 10th March 2023, 10:51 AM

Hello André,

Yes, this hilt type clearly represents the pupa of longhorn beetles. That is the reason why the third pair of legs is partially covered by the (future) wing, at least if carved by someone who knows what he's doing. (BTW, are there any female carvers nowadays or is it still considered a pure male profession/past time?)

Beetles are holometabolic insects which pass through a distinct pupa stage (as butterflies, etc.) even if the metamorphosis is a bit less striking since beetle pupae already exhibit body and appendages similar to adults (cp. the Nieuwenkamp drawing: both hilts resemble the pupa while the adult beetle on the left is different; one has to concede that the carvers exhibit varying talent/knowledge though, especially nowadays we see all sorts of monster versions).

This life stage concept was already alluded to in this discussion and (aside from the Hindu creation narrative) is a really interesting aspect of this hilt type's symbolism, I believe.

Regards,
Kai

Wijaya34 · 11th March 2023, 03:29 AM

An old (Ivory?) Kocet-Kocetan hilt for sharing, it was found intact with a Jalak Budha keris.

kai · 11th March 2023, 06:02 PM

Thanks for posting this special hilt, Wijaya!

To me, this looks like an ancestor figural hilt (squatting posture with arms on both sides). Maybe Sumbawa?

Regards,
Kai

milandro · 11th March 2023, 06:15 PM

I can see a squatting figure but I don't think I can recognise the typical features of a Kocet-Kocetan (at least not the ones that I know as such)

kai · 11th March 2023, 06:37 PM

Yes, quite surely not from Bali, I believe.

Wijaya34 · 12th March 2023, 01:25 AM

Hi everyone, the hilt was recently excavated in the new Kediri airport a few months ago, so It's likely not from Sumbawa or Bali. I was thinking that it might be some kind of prototypical Kocet-Kocetan hilt before it evolved into it's current form.

milandro · 17th March 2023, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wijaya34

Hi everyone, the hilt was recently excavated in the new Kediri airport a few months ago, so It's likely not from Sumbawa or Bali. I was thinking that it might be some kind of prototypical Kocet-Kocetan hilt before it evolved into its current form.

It is really unlikely that this was a Kocet-Kocetan shape and in fact it is possible that it is the reverse which means that the Kocet-Kocetan evolved in other forms rather than other forms evolved into a Kocet-Kocetan

you can look this up about the evolution of this hilts here

kai · 17th March 2023, 07:33 PM

Quote:

you can look this up about the evolution of this hilts here

Thanks for the reference, André!

I'm afraid the idea set forth in this paper is a non-sequitur for me: I'm missing an in-depth discussion why the author chooses to associate Madurese hilts with overwhelmingly similar overall features as well as shared motifs/details into 3 distinct categories: H3, Ins3, and I3. I'd like to see convincing evidence why all these Madurese hilts should be considered not more closely related to each other than to 3 very different "lineages" from a variety of cultures.

Regards,
Kai

milandro · 17th March 2023, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks for the reference, André!

I'm afraid the idea set forth in this paper is a non-sequitur for me: I'm missing an in-depth discussion why the author chooses to associate Madurese hilts with overwhelmingly similar overall features as well as shared motifs/details into 3 distinct categories: H3, Ins3, and I3. I'd like to see convincing evidence why all these Madurese hilts should be considered not more closely related to each other than to 3 very different "lineages" from a variety of cultures.

Regards,
Kai

You are right Kai, indeed it isn't clear, it seems as though the author seems to think that the Bali form of hilt making is the truest to the shape that it wants to represent and that the Madura form represents an " evolution" towards abstract form.

Whether this is what really happened it isn't possible to say, certainly not with that brief account given there.

kai · 17th March 2023, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Hi everyone, the hilt was recently excavated in the new Kediri airport a few months ago, so It's likely not from Sumbawa or Bali. I was thinking that it might be some kind of prototypical Kocet-Kocetan hilt before it evolved into it's current form.

Thanks for the details, pak Wijaya!

Do you have more pics, please?

So, the whole ensemble is as excavated? (Not including the old scabbard, I guess?)

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 17th March 2023, 08:27 PM

I cannot see any trace of the Kocet-Kocetan/Kusia form in the hilt shown in post #34, to me it looks like a humanoid form, perhaps generic ancestor figure.

David · 11th March 2023, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wijaya34

An old (Ivory?) Kocet-Kocetan hilt for sharing, it was found intact with a Jalak Budha keris.

I'm afraid i'm with Milandro and Kai on this one. More likely an ancestor figure. I don't see any indication it could be an example of a kocet-kocetan hilt and i doubt it is even Balinese.
Doesn't look like ivory either, but better photos might reveal more.

Gavin Nugent · 11th March 2023, 11:19 PM

From a 2010 trip to Bali.

11th March 2023, 03:29 AM	#2
Wijaya34 Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 15	An old (Ivory?) Kocet-Kocetan hilt for sharing, it was found intact with a Jalak Budha keris. Attached Images

11th March 2023, 11:19 PM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	From a 2010 trip to Bali. Attached Images

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10th March 2023, 10:51 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello André, Yes, this hilt type clearly represents the pupa of longhorn beetles. That is the reason why the third pair of legs is partially covered by the (future) wing, at least if carved by someone who knows what he's doing. (BTW, are there any female carvers nowadays or is it still considered a pure male profession/past time?) Beetles are holometabolic insects which pass through a distinct pupa stage (as butterflies, etc.) even if the metamorphosis is a bit less striking since beetle pupae already exhibit body and appendages similar to adults (cp. the Nieuwenkamp drawing: both hilts resemble the pupa while the adult beetle on the left is different; one has to concede that the carvers exhibit varying talent/knowledge though, especially nowadays we see all sorts of monster versions). This life stage concept was already alluded to in this discussion and (aside from the Hindu creation narrative) is a really interesting aspect of this hilt type's symbolism, I believe. Regards, Kai

11th March 2023, 06:02 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Thanks for posting this special hilt, Wijaya! To me, this looks like an ancestor figural hilt (squatting posture with arms on both sides). Maybe Sumbawa? Regards, Kai

11th March 2023, 06:15 PM	#4
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 500	I can see a squatting figure but I don't think I can recognise the typical features of a Kocet-Kocetan (at least not the ones that I know as such)

11th March 2023, 06:37 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Yes, quite surely not from Bali, I believe.

12th March 2023, 01:25 AM	#6
Wijaya34 Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 15	Hi everyone, the hilt was recently excavated in the new Kediri airport a few months ago, so It's likely not from Sumbawa or Bali. I was thinking that it might be some kind of prototypical Kocet-Kocetan hilt before it evolved into it's current form.

17th March 2023, 08:27 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,217	I cannot see any trace of the Kocet-Kocetan/Kusia form in the hilt shown in post #34, to me it looks like a humanoid form, perhaps generic ancestor figure.