Coyness in posting keris pics

David · 4th January 2023, 07:00 PM

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2023, 07:33 PM

You seem to be in a different, but somewhat similar position to my own David.

Sometimes I would very much like to show a photo of something in order to provide clarification, but I do not do this simply because I know it is something that would be frowned upon by a number of people and for those people it would mark me as a pretender.

But I do show keris from my personal collection when I have decided to move that keris to a new owner. When this happens I move the keris to items identified for sale, rather than items identified for collection.

There is another reason that some people do not like showing collection items in a place where strangers can see those things, and this applies not only to collectors of keris.

It is the same reason that they do not show items of jewellery or other valuables, the same reason why they maintain a security room, the same reason why they instal a safe, the same reason why they make sure that their home address is removed from public records.

David · 4th January 2023, 09:01 PM

One other reason some folks avoid posting their keris, especially multiple detailed images, is to keep unscrupulous characters from stealing those photos and attempting to sell keris they do not possess to unwary collectors. This is a common scam.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2023, 09:14 PM

Yeah, I've heard of this David, but I've never encountered it, I have an almost invisible presence on social media --- more now than I have previously held --- & I do not buy on the internet.

But I do not for a moment doubt that it does happen, if there is a way to scam in any field, the scamsters will find it.

We can put as many controls as we like into a system, and eventually a control will pick up a scam, but it is is often the detective control, rather than the preventive control that picks up the scam.

The bad guys are nearly always one step ahead.

Ever heard of Bernie Madoff?

David · 4th January 2023, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ever heard of Bernie Madoff?

Of course, Bernie's story didn't turnout too well for him in the end.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2023, 11:49 PM

As I said David:- detective control

It all happens, somebody suffers loss, then we catch the baddies.

That's what audit & compliance is about, and as I understand it, in Bernies case the preventive controls screwed up badly:- human failure.

Anthony G. · 5th January 2023, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

Hi David, my good friend. Could you be so kind to break out the comments in paragraphs so that making reading easily. Thanks

Green · 5th January 2023, 05:41 AM

I've been to quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia over the years - in Bali, Jakarta, Jogjakarta, Medan, Bone Sulawesi among others. This practically covers all keris centres in Indonesia. This means that basically there are no taboos regarding displaying personal pusakas. The preference to show or not to show your kerises are just that. Personal preference (for whatever reasons).

Also, in Malaysia, and Southern Thailand (another major keris culture region) they hold keris competition almost annually where collectors and enthusiasts bring their best keris (pusakas and antiques keris) to participate and can be seen by all.Again no taboos about displaying keris in this region as well.

In short, it is just personal choice.

A. G. Maisey · 5th January 2023, 06:34 AM

I agree completely Green.

Absolutely a personal choice.

However, for the traditionalists of Central Jawa whom I know and have known, that personal choice was and is to observe the ways of their forefathers, and these ways include and have included the non-display of personal keris.

The people who arrange keris exhibitions do so to exhibit keris, most would be dealers, makers, collectors. If there were any Central Javanese traditionalists amongst them I would be prepared to place a wager that none of these traditionalists had placed a keris that he regarded as a personal keris, on display.

In fact, I can very clearly recall a discussion between some gentlemen I used to know (all have passed now) in Solo during the 1980's who were debating the morality of putting keris on display.

Some of these men were of the opinion that it was quite OK to display keris, provided that the keris displayed were not keris that a person regarded as his personal property.

Others maintained that the only time a keris should be shown to other than close, trusted friends was when that keris was being offered for sale.

But others thought that apart from being morally wrong to display keris that were in one's custody, it was an act of extremely poor taste to engage in any act of display, be that display of keris or any other object. To these men it was just plain bad manners, indicative of a person who had no personal standards, or who "was not yet Javanese", ie, one who behaved like a child.

So --- yes personal choice, and we all have our own standards.

rasdan · 5th January 2023, 08:29 PM

I have a bit digressing question about personal keris for our fellow forum member Alan.

On keeping a personal keris private, does this include the secrecy of the dhapur/pamor type of the particular keris and the naming (Kiyai X and Kyai Y) of the keris?

If the dhapur is a secret, I would imagine that a keris with dhapur X will never be named Kyai X. Or is it considered OK?

I have seen a list of kraton pusaka and some of the pusakas are named Kyai Sangkelat (for example), does this means that the keris is dhapur sangkelat or could the keris be of a different dhapur than the name suggests?

A. G. Maisey · 5th January 2023, 10:11 PM

Rasdan, I cannot give a definite, factual response to that question, all I know for certain is that amongst the people who were close friends & associates of PP, and amongst some older people whom I know well, there are a couple of things that should not be done:-

1) no open display of a personal keris to strangers

2) no display of personal belongings, wealth, or self ever; one should always appear to be less than what one really is; the idea behind this is, I think, that if a person is truly a force to be reckoned with, that will be obvious to all, no matter what the eyes might see of the person concerned.

None of this gets down to specifics or regulated instructions, it is all part of an overall pattern of behaviour.

Here is a little story, personal experience.

About 30 years ago I was invited to a wedding dinner. It was the marriage of an Indonesian relative to the son of an Indonesian gentleman who had made his wealth through timber concessions and had then diversified into manufacturing & tourist accommodation. The family was one of the wealthiest in Indonesia at that time.

As seems to be customary for a lot of Indonesians who have one foot in Indonesia & one foot in some other country, this couple did not have a single wedding, they had several, a couple in Indonesia in different locations, a couple in Australia, one in Sydney, one in Melbourne, I attended the Sydney one.

At the wedding dinner, the father, a gentleman of about 70, weighing no more than about 60kg & standing no more than about 5'2" tall, was wearing a badly fitting, crumpled, dusty, worn, blue pinstripe suit. His watch was a black plastic Casio. No personal jewellery, not even a wedding ring. His wife looked as if she had spent the entire day before the dinner in Sydney's most talented beautician's premises, she wore a simple black frock that I was later told she had ordered from her regular supplier in Paris. She wore only one piece of jewellery, a simple pendent:- the chain was gold and about as thick as my little finger, the pendent itself was a single diamond, about the size of a large pigeon egg.

Was the father of the bride a powerful man?

Well, by himself nobody would take the slightest notice of him, but in company with his wife anybody with half a brain would know to step very carefully indeed.

In Javanese society statements are never made directly, one needs to be able to understand that which is not spoken, that which is not obvious. One speaks by not speaking.

David · 5th January 2023, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

I've been to quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia over the years - in Bali, Jakarta, Jogjakarta, Medan, Bone Sulawesi among others. This practically covers all keris centres in Indonesia. This means that basically there are no taboos regarding displaying personal pusakas. The preference to show or not to show your kerises are just that. Personal preference (for whatever reasons).

Also, in Malaysia, and Southern Thailand (another major keris culture region) they hold keris competition almost annually where collectors and enthusiasts bring their best keris (pusakas and antiques keris) to participate and can be seen by all.Again no taboos about displaying keris in this region as well.

In short, it is just personal choice.

I believe it might be a little bit difficult to know what keris at one of these exhibitions were actually "pusaka" in the truest sense of the word. It seems to me that in the last decade or so this word has lost much of its original meaning. Keris that were once held as pusaka, but since released, are presented for sale as a "pusaka" keris. This confuses me because i do not understand how a keris that has been released from its kinship group can still be regarded as a pusaka keris. Many dealers these days present every antique keris they are selling as "pusaka". But how can i buy someone else pusaka keris and then say that i own a pusaka keris? If i am not part of the original kinship group how can this keris rightfully still be called pusaka once it joins my collection.
I have never understood the concept of presenting antique keris in a competitive format. New keris, yes, i can see that. Who and what are these competitions rewarding for "best" keris. A long dead empu? While i can certainly see contemporary smiths competing for best in show with their newly made blades, pitting old blades against each other makes little sense to me. It seems that the honour of winning first place in a contest of antique keris is really an award for one's financial status and ability to afford the very best in high end antique keris. Or perhaps it is an award for being clever enough to be in the right place at the right time to be able to obtain such keris. Either way, it is has nothing to do with any particular skill set possessed by the current custodian of the keris.
Considering the keris as an art form, i have always had difficulty judging one piece of art against another. Once you reach a certain level of quality art becomes rather subjective. And if we are indeed talking about people competing with their personal pusaka, keris that actually hold kinship lineage going back generations in one's family, i personally find the idea of judging one person's pusaka against another rather distasteful. But as you say, this is a personal preference.
But no, Nik, i don't believe prohibitions against showing your personal keris to strangers of in public places is in any way the general practice throughout all keris bearing cultures. Alan's preferences are formed based upon the practices of a relatively small group of people. Customs regarding keris have changed greatly as the keris has moved away from it's origin centers.
That said i believe that the vast majority of keris that we see presented in public spaces as "pusaka" are not really pusaka in the original sense of the word. But if one does indeed wish to present the symbol of their family lineage on display the entire world that is indeed their right.

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2023, 12:08 AM

David, regarding the word "pusaka".

It has several meanings, in Bahasa Indonesia it simple means "heirloom".

In Javanese it can mean an heirloom or revered object that has been passed down through a family, it can mean any sort of inheritance, it can mean a family ricefield, it can mean any weapon that the owner considers to be a personal talisman.

In colloquial speech, people who are a part of keris culture will sometimes use the word "pusaka" to loosely refer to any weapon.

I personally think that the already colloquial use of this word has become even more loose as it is used by some dealers.

Green · 6th January 2023, 03:42 AM

David;

The explanation by Alan about 'pusaka ' is exactly what is also meant in the Malay world of Malaysia and Southern Thailand. And there is no taboo or restriction whatever from selling whatever heirlooms(pusaka). Except for personal emotional attachment to it. No mumbo jumbo about spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever. At least in modern Malay muslim world.

With regards to keris competition in Malaysia and Southern Thailand I've been to many (but not participating in the competition itself) and know many of the pioneers of these competitions and judges. Basically the original intention was so as to generate more interest and encourage more people to love their keris culture and to bring to the public the best kerises for all to appreciate. There are specific criteria for judging and these are done as objectively as the judges can. Criteria include types of blades, complete and undamaged blade without and repairs, symbolisms (ketandaan), pamor, etc.The quality of hilts and Sheath and added decorations .Old antiques kerises and new creations are judged separately.

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2023, 08:38 AM

I think that what you relate in post #25 is probably pretty true of Indonesia also Green, however, my experience of Indonesia is limited to Central Jawa, mainly Solo, East Jawa, mainly Malang, places south & east of Malang, Madura, and Bali.

I have spent very little time in major cities like Jakarta & Surabaya, in fact I have not been to Jakarta since 1978. Virtually all the contact I have with people in Jawa is with quite conservative Javanese people on the one hand, and very humble grass roots Javanese people on the other hand.

Most of what I know about keris, most of what I believe about keris I learnt in Solo in the period between 1966 and 2015. Most of that instruction came from men who began their journey with the keris prior to WWII. I think all these people have now passed, but I still have friends and acquaintances in Solo who are of senior generations, and from what I can understand, their values do not seem to vary much from the values of my past teachers.

I have set forth in post #22 my observations in respect of keris display.It seems to me that both the bulk of the people I used to know & who have already passed, and the bulk of people I still know and who are still in this world hold the opinion that keris display of virtually any kind is, in a word, crass, and not really the correct way for a Javanese gentleman to behave.

There is an immense variation between overall Indonesian standards & values as they are now, and the standards & values of conservative Central Javanese traditionalists.

David · 6th January 2023, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

The explanation by Alan about 'pusaka ' is exactly what is also meant in the Malay world of Malaysia and Southern Thailand. And there is no taboo or restriction whatever from selling whatever heirlooms(pusaka). Except for personal emotional attachment to it. No mumbo jumbo about spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever. At least in modern Malay muslim world.

I don't believe i ever claimed there were taboos or restrictions about selling keris pusaka nor do i have any problem with anyone wanting to sell their pusaka. That is their personal choice and right. Nor did i mention anything about "mumbo jumbo, spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever". So i am a bit confused by this response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

With regards to keris competition in Malaysia and Southern Thailand I've been to many (but not participating in the competition itself) and know many of the pioneers of these competitions and judges. Basically the original intention was so as to generate more interest and encourage more people to love their keris culture and to bring to the public the best kerises for all to appreciate. There are specific criteria for judging and these are done as objectively as the judges can. Criteria include types of blades, complete and undamaged blade without and repairs, symbolisms (ketandaan), pamor, etc.The quality of hilts and Sheath and added decorations .Old antiques kerises and new creations are judged separately.

I have no problem whatsoever about generating interest in the keris. In fact i very much like to encourage that. But i still find the idea of competitive judging for old blades strange. If i win one of the categories in these competitions it seems to be little more than an indication of my wealth, status and connections that have allowed me to obtain such an award winning keris. With new keris at least the award gives credit and encouragement to living keris makers which i would think is a good thing. But most antique blades we can only guess at who the creator might have been.

David · 7th January 2023, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, regarding the word "pusaka".

It has several meanings, in Bahasa Indonesia it simple means "heirloom".

In Javanese it can mean an heirloom or revered object that has been passed down through a family, it can mean any sort of inheritance, it can mean a family ricefield, it can mean any weapon that the owner considers to be a personal talisman.

In colloquial speech, people who are a part of keris culture will sometimes use the word "pusaka" to loosely refer to any weapon.

I personally think that the already colloquial use of this word has become even more loose as it is used by some dealers.

Thanks Alan. Yes, i am well aware that pusaka is not a term reserved solely for keris.
I also understand that the word has found its way into Bahasa Indonesian, but my personal feeling is that how the word is defined in the original Javanese perspective is mush more pertinent when it is used to discuss keris.
As for colloquial usage, i find it confusing that it has become a word used to describe any weapon. As for its use by dealers, my feeling is that it is a word they choose to use only to elevate the perceived value of their stock.

A. G. Maisey · 7th January 2023, 01:48 AM

Actually, the use to describe any weapon that the owner considers to be a personal talisman is listed in my big Javanese dictionary as normal usage, not colloquial.

But with the dealer usage, yeah, sure the intent is marketing.

SidJ · 8th January 2023, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

David I agree with you on the point of certain folk showing off their stuff on other forums. Its the attempt at one upmanship to rapidly build up some degree of credibility and rise up the ranks in these forums especially in the case of folk aspiring to gain commercially by emulating successful dealers. The prices they charge then funnily are also ridicilously steep. Its a ploy to build a profile and image to market oneself and ones products to maximise gain.

A. G. Maisey · 8th January 2023, 08:42 PM

Keris, tombak and other items of tosan aji are regarded as having protective qualities.

When they are on display in a traditional Javanese home they are usually put in a strategic position that the people living in that home believe will protect the home & themselves from evil.

Blawongs were & are wall decorations, sometimes intended just as a decoration, like a painting or framed picture, sometimes because the people living in the house regard the blawong& its motif as protective. This is very much the case in rural Central Jawa.

Somewhere along the way people started to combine the protective qualities of the blawong with the protective qualities of the keris. Blawongs were not originally intended to display keris.

As for the ploncon/jagrak, Sid is dead right when he says that display of keris dress is totally different to display of the keris itself. There can be a number of reasons why easily reachable keris could be considered a good idea.

For instance, let's say you are a Javanese gentleman dressed in full traditional attire, you're on your way to a wedding, or a party or some other event, you call in to have a yarn with your mate along the way.

It is not possible to sit comfortably in a normal lounge chair with a wangkingan stuck in the back of your setagen, so you remove it, then what do you do with it?

If your mate has a ploncon in his front room, you put the keris into that, and when you're leaving you turn it into a wangkingan again.

Then we have dealers:- they need some way to display what they are selling. Keris dress is fragile, a ploncon helps to prevent damage.

What I've written relates to Javanese keris, but what about the little statues that are used to hold Balinese keris?

These were originally placed on the front verandah next to the front door, a visitor placed his keris into the holder when entered the house or sat.

A. G. Maisey · 8th January 2023, 09:08 PM

Sid, I think your post #36 is close to the mark from one perspective, but long, long before the internet came along, collectors and students of the keris, and just about everything else collectable were going along to periodic meetings and taking their favourite or recent possessions along to show other people. Sometimes there might have been an element of flamboyance & self aggrandizement, but I feel that it was mostly just interested people associating with other interested people.

Exhibitions still happen, apart from keris I have other interests --- watches, paper weights, sea shells, gemstones, ancient coins & etc &etc --- when the opportunity arises I go along to exhibitions of these sorts of things, really, for no other purpose than just to look at them, because I like looking at them.

With keris it is a wee bit different:- we are dealing with a cultural icon that has sacred elements. I feel that the people who understand this are more often than not inclined to to be somewhat conservative with the items they are prepared to display, but the pure collector who has little or no interest in the back story of the keris is interested in other qualities and all the baggage that the keris carries is of little interest to him.

Yeah, for sure sometimes the dealers get out there and wave things around to try to raise interest, but it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what a fair price is for the item he wishes to buy, and many things can affect a fair price.

I recently paid around 6K more for a used motor vehicle than was recognised as the going rate for that particular vehicle, year & model. I reckon I got a bargain. Why? This was the legendary ten year old vehicle that had only been driven to church on Sundays by the legendary Little Old Lady. It was still in showroom condition with exceptionally low mileage.

Lots of things can affect a price of anything, a buyer needs to know what he is doing, he needs to strive to know as much or more than the dealers.

JustYS · 9th January 2023, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors.

I completely agreed with you David, the reason why I've posted keris in this forum is because I've found this forum like some sort of sanctuary where members can give feedbacks/comments unbiased and without ulterior motive which I hope can increase my knowledge.

SidJ · 17th January 2023, 12:17 PM

I had a thought on this. Could not wanting to share or show keris be an Islamic precept or cultural practice? Pre Islam might keris have been proudly shown? Look at the old stone sculptures. No shame there in displaying. Another point is that the keris had to fit into the new islamic paradigm. Keeping it hidden might have been one way of navigating this? In Hinduism and other Islamic societies weapons are shown off proudly. Keris had to deal with particular issues that meant keeping them under the radar might have been best perhaps? Wjat is the case in Bali?

David · 17th January 2023, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SidJ

I had a thought on this. Could not wanting to share or show keris be an Islamic precept or cultural practice? Pre Islam might keris have been proudly shown? Look at the old stone sculptures. No shame there in displaying. Another point is that the keris had to fit into the new islamic paradigm. Keeping it hidden might have been one way of navigating this? In Hinduism and other Islamic societies weapons are shown off proudly. Keris had to deal with particular issues that meant keeping them under the radar might have been best perhaps? Wjat is the case in Bali?

Interesting thought. I don't think collectors in general give enough thought to the differences in keris tradition between Hindu and Islamic times, or for that matter, between all eras of keris use.
However, i am not sure we can point to a display of keris in old Hindu temple reliefs. Firstly, when keris blades are on display in old temple reliefs, they are generally showing keris in use. It is not simply a display of the blade as if to say, "hey, look at my keris blade". Secondly, that's art, so it is a bit removed from someones personal pusaka keris. It's just an artistic depiction.
I am not too sure on how this is seen historically or in present day Bali. The first thing that comes to mind regarding display a keris blade in Bali is the keris dance element of the Barong Dance. In the modern era this is mostly done as a performance for tourists. Certainly it originally had a more ritual/ceremonial element, but today it is mostly theatre. Which is not to say that actual trance states do not still occur. But i don't think it is likely that the keris the dancers use in these performances are their personal pusaka. So again, this might not be the best example to show that displaying your keris in public is considered proper.

A. G. Maisey · 17th January 2023, 08:27 PM

Sid, social attitudes & mores change over time, but foundation philosophies that are the hall marks of a society rarely change, they might be expressed in varying ways as time passes, but the threads that bind a society seem to remain. The way in which the members of a society see the world in general seems to remain more or less consistent.

What can & does change is the individual. When a member of one society moves into a different society his way of seeing & understanding the world around him will be altered to a degree by the people with whom he interacts on a daily basis.

When the foundation philosophies of an entire society are impacted by the adoption of a new set of values & standards it is inevitable that the way in which the members of that society understand the world around them will be altered.

The keris in Jawa is a cultural icon, and the way in which that cultural icon is understood is not at variance with the ways in which the Javanese people understand the world in which they live.

This overarching characteristic of Javanese society can be thought of as a "Magic World View".

There is a world that we see and a world that we cannot see, these two worlds overlap to some degree and it is believed that they can influence each other. This is not a unique Javanese way of thinking. It seems to be something that is a universal trait of humanity.

An easy example would be the use of prayer.

Yes, the People of the Book pray, but so do all other members of the human race --- well, at least they do when they act like human beings. It seems to be a matter of choice whether people believe in things they cannot see.

The "magic" qualities of a keris go back a long way, possibly there was a flow-on from the Indian (Sub-Continent) beliefs associated with weaponry, but even these beliefs are not really unique to Indian society. Similar beliefs have permeated European cultures, think of the Vikings, and exist --- or perhaps existed --- amongst the Maori people of New Zealand.

I think we all know the Mpu Gandring story? The super powerful keris that is central to it? This was way back in the Singosari era, long before Islam had made an impact.

When Islam came into Javanese society the Javanese people found that the Sufic philosophies were very close to the philosophies that already existed in Javanese society, over time these Sufic ideas & beliefs were absorbed into the existing Javanese philosophies that were based on indigenous (ancestor worship, animism) beliefs and Buddhist-Hindu beliefs, and the result was Kejawen, which is sometimes referred to as "Javanese Islam".

The ways in which Javanese people think of and interact with the keris are really no different to the ways in which they think of and interact with other sacred objects. In essence, the keris is a sacred object, in its association with the ancestors and with Siwa it is about as sacred as we can get.

Never forget:- a man's personal keris (and he might have many) represents the man himself.

This current idea that keris can be displayed and have awards given might be something that people with a Javanese heritage subscribe to, but these people have to a very large degree strayed from the ways of their ancestors.

This is not my opinion alone, I cannot count the number of times I have heard this same sentiment expressed by people in Central Jawa who pride themselves on observance of traditional Javanese values.

There seems to be no doubt at all that the current trend towards display of keris is commercially driven. In simple terms it is good for business, in the same way that display of motor vehicles, farm machinery and business equipment is good for business.

And in the same way that exhibitions of antiques in general or art works in general is good for business.

But the Javanese keris is not just an art work or an antique, it is a sacred object and deserves to be treated as such.

SidJ · 17th January 2023, 11:11 PM

Thanks Alan
Is there a different standard that applies to non Jawanese keris re display? Eg Sumatran or Malay/ Bugis keris? Are these keris viewed differently by folk from these areas? Islam may have had a different influence on keris culture in these areas perhaps influencing keris design and its place in society? And what about Bali the last bastion of the old religion? The keris has been preserved there unaltered shall we say with all its iconography. Are they displayed there or are they treated in the same manner as in Jawa?

A. G. Maisey · 18th January 2023, 05:17 AM

Sid, I'd like to rephrase your question:-

Are keris thought of in other S.E. Asian societies as they are in traditional Javanese society?

I believe that varying socio-cultural values are attached to the keris in some other societies, but I have not done the necessary research in these other societies to be certain of this.

Based upon the limited research I have done it appears that the keris spread into other South East Asian societies in the form of gifts from Javanese rulers and traders.

The nature of the keris as a gift is as a binding force. The well known gifts from old time Dutch East Indies rulers to Dutch monarchs were viewed by the givers as gifts that bound the recipient, the Dutch Monarch, to the giver, who was the Javanese or other monarch.

The power that endows the gift of a keris as a binding agent is the relationship of Basuki (Naga Vasuki) to the keris. When the keris is thought of as symbolic of the Naga, the specific Naga it symbolises is Naga Basuki.

A reading of this:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keris-naga

might clarify.

So, the keris spread into other societies, from Jawa, as a token that had a binding force. However, only the keris spread, the complete belief system that was associated with the keris seems not to have spread, and perhaps the beliefs now associated with the keris were not a part of keris belief during the time when the spread of the keris to other societies did occur.

In pre-Islamic Jawa it seems that all references to the keris are in its function as a weapon, and occasionally as a weapon that was endowed with magical powers. It appears that in societies other than Jawa, this is still the way in which the keris is thought of.

Islam has undoubtedly played a part in the way in which the keris is now thought of in Jawa, as well as in other places, however to explore this is far beyond the possibilities of an on-line discussion group.

In respect of Bali.

It would appear that the puputans did much to destroy the Balinese belief in the power of the ancestors to assist in times of trouble. That contact with the ancestors flowed from a parallel dimension, to the perceived dimension, through the pusaka kerises, most especially the Royal Pusakas. The failure of the power believed to exist in the Niskala to assist those who needed assistance in the Sekala seems to have undermined Balinese beliefs, some of those beliefs were associated with the keris

The puputans were not ritual suicide, as they are so often painted, they were statements by the ruling classes that an era had come to an end and that they had no wish to live in the coming era.

After the puputans the Balinese people were forced to find a new way in which to rationalise the world in which they lived.

Because of this fracture of Balinese society as it was prior to Dutch oversight, and as it became after Dutch oversight it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible to compare the way in which the keris is thought of in Bali now, with how it might have been thought of in Bali before the puputans. Ergo, we cannot carry out a comparison of Balinese values as they are now with Javanese values as they are now.

Time alters perspective Sid.

To my mind it is pointless to try to compare current Balinese ways with Balinese ways of the past, or with Javanese ways of either the past or present.

Yes, today's Bali has its roots in pre-Islamic Mojopahit, but it is not pre-Islamic Mojopahit. Even religion as now observed in Bali varies from the Bali-Hindu religious system as it had developed prior to the formation of the state of Indonesia.

When Indonesia was formed the new state included religious freedom in its structure, but for a religion to be recognised as an acceptable religion this required it to be a monotheistic religion.

In Bali this was achieved by recognition of Iswara as the "One God" (Ida Sanghyang Widi Wasa), the deities of the old Bali-Hindu belief system were then officially regarded as manifestations of this "One God". The new faith was essentially the same as the old faith, but a new philosophy was put in place to permit Balinese people to be voting members of the new Indonesian society.

Bali-Hindu is now Agama Hindu Dharma.

One might say that only the names have been changed to protect the innocent --- or something like that.

During the 1970's, 1980's & 1990's I was unable to find anybody in Bali who would have been regarded as an Ahli Keris in Solo. I met a lot of keris interested people, one of these people was a distant relative and a Brahmin. I did get a little bit of keris understanding from this man, but it was nothing similar to what I was getting in Jawa.

In Bali, I have never seen any evidence of open display of keris from previous times, and with the involvement of Balinese people, except limited museum display.

I have seen keris display in Bali, organised for commercial reasons and involving business people from outside Bali, craftsmen, and Balinese people who do not necessarily subscribe to all Balinese beliefs.

The Balinese keris has only come back into Balinese society during the last 25 years or so. In the late 1990's through into the early 2000's, Balinese people began to believe that the problems that were being experienced in the world around them were in large part due to their neglect of traditional ways & values.

Part of this neglect was recognised as being the neglect of the traditional values associated with the keris.

This was the point at which the keris began to rise again as a Balinese societal icon.

Prior to year 2000 I doubt that anybody would have found a genuine authority on the Balinese keris, in Bali.

But look at the difference now:- it seems we have literally thousands of Balinese experts on the Balinese keris who can provide us with "traditional knowledge".

Who were their teachers?

When Pande Wayan Suteja Neka produced his Big Bali Keris Book, why did he need to employ a young gentleman from Solo to write the text?

Sid, getting in depth understanding of Javanese keris can be a very difficult and frustrating pursuit, but getting an in depth understanding of the keris in Bali is full of so many pitfalls & dead ends that in my opinion no true, genuine understanding of the position of the keris in Balinese society prior to Dutch oversight is possible. There are too many fractures in the line of understanding.

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4th January 2023, 07:00 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly. I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

4th January 2023, 07:33 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	You seem to be in a different, but somewhat similar position to my own David. Sometimes I would very much like to show a photo of something in order to provide clarification, but I do not do this simply because I know it is something that would be frowned upon by a number of people and for those people it would mark me as a pretender. But I do show keris from my personal collection when I have decided to move that keris to a new owner. When this happens I move the keris to items identified for sale, rather than items identified for collection. There is another reason that some people do not like showing collection items in a place where strangers can see those things, and this applies not only to collectors of keris. It is the same reason that they do not show items of jewellery or other valuables, the same reason why they maintain a security room, the same reason why they instal a safe, the same reason why they make sure that their home address is removed from public records.

4th January 2023, 09:01 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	One other reason some folks avoid posting their keris, especially multiple detailed images, is to keep unscrupulous characters from stealing those photos and attempting to sell keris they do not possess to unwary collectors. This is a common scam.

4th January 2023, 09:14 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yeah, I've heard of this David, but I've never encountered it, I have an almost invisible presence on social media --- more now than I have previously held --- & I do not buy on the internet. But I do not for a moment doubt that it does happen, if there is a way to scam in any field, the scamsters will find it. We can put as many controls as we like into a system, and eventually a control will pick up a scam, but it is is often the detective control, rather than the preventive control that picks up the scam. The bad guys are nearly always one step ahead. Ever heard of Bernie Madoff?

4th January 2023, 11:49 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	As I said David:- detective control It all happens, somebody suffers loss, then we catch the baddies. That's what audit & compliance is about, and as I understand it, in Bernies case the preventive controls screwed up badly:- human failure.

5th January 2023, 05:41 AM	#8
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	I've been to quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia over the years - in Bali, Jakarta, Jogjakarta, Medan, Bone Sulawesi among others. This practically covers all keris centres in Indonesia. This means that basically there are no taboos regarding displaying personal pusakas. The preference to show or not to show your kerises are just that. Personal preference (for whatever reasons). Also, in Malaysia, and Southern Thailand (another major keris culture region) they hold keris competition almost annually where collectors and enthusiasts bring their best keris (pusakas and antiques keris) to participate and can be seen by all.Again no taboos about displaying keris in this region as well. In short, it is just personal choice.

5th January 2023, 06:34 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I agree completely Green. Absolutely a personal choice. However, for the traditionalists of Central Jawa whom I know and have known, that personal choice was and is to observe the ways of their forefathers, and these ways include and have included the non-display of personal keris. The people who arrange keris exhibitions do so to exhibit keris, most would be dealers, makers, collectors. If there were any Central Javanese traditionalists amongst them I would be prepared to place a wager that none of these traditionalists had placed a keris that he regarded as a personal keris, on display. In fact, I can very clearly recall a discussion between some gentlemen I used to know (all have passed now) in Solo during the 1980's who were debating the morality of putting keris on display. Some of these men were of the opinion that it was quite OK to display keris, provided that the keris displayed were not keris that a person regarded as his personal property. Others maintained that the only time a keris should be shown to other than close, trusted friends was when that keris was being offered for sale. But others thought that apart from being morally wrong to display keris that were in one's custody, it was an act of extremely poor taste to engage in any act of display, be that display of keris or any other object. To these men it was just plain bad manners, indicative of a person who had no personal standards, or who "was not yet Javanese", ie, one who behaved like a child. So --- yes personal choice, and we all have our own standards.

5th January 2023, 08:29 PM	#10
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	I have a bit digressing question about personal keris for our fellow forum member Alan. On keeping a personal keris private, does this include the secrecy of the dhapur/pamor type of the particular keris and the naming (Kiyai X and Kyai Y) of the keris? If the dhapur is a secret, I would imagine that a keris with dhapur X will never be named Kyai X. Or is it considered OK? I have seen a list of kraton pusaka and some of the pusakas are named Kyai Sangkelat (for example), does this means that the keris is dhapur sangkelat or could the keris be of a different dhapur than the name suggests?

5th January 2023, 10:11 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Rasdan, I cannot give a definite, factual response to that question, all I know for certain is that amongst the people who were close friends & associates of PP, and amongst some older people whom I know well, there are a couple of things that should not be done:- 1) no open display of a personal keris to strangers 2) no display of personal belongings, wealth, or self ever; one should always appear to be less than what one really is; the idea behind this is, I think, that if a person is truly a force to be reckoned with, that will be obvious to all, no matter what the eyes might see of the person concerned. None of this gets down to specifics or regulated instructions, it is all part of an overall pattern of behaviour. Here is a little story, personal experience. About 30 years ago I was invited to a wedding dinner. It was the marriage of an Indonesian relative to the son of an Indonesian gentleman who had made his wealth through timber concessions and had then diversified into manufacturing & tourist accommodation. The family was one of the wealthiest in Indonesia at that time. As seems to be customary for a lot of Indonesians who have one foot in Indonesia & one foot in some other country, this couple did not have a single wedding, they had several, a couple in Indonesia in different locations, a couple in Australia, one in Sydney, one in Melbourne, I attended the Sydney one. At the wedding dinner, the father, a gentleman of about 70, weighing no more than about 60kg & standing no more than about 5'2" tall, was wearing a badly fitting, crumpled, dusty, worn, blue pinstripe suit. His watch was a black plastic Casio. No personal jewellery, not even a wedding ring. His wife looked as if she had spent the entire day before the dinner in Sydney's most talented beautician's premises, she wore a simple black frock that I was later told she had ordered from her regular supplier in Paris. She wore only one piece of jewellery, a simple pendent:- the chain was gold and about as thick as my little finger, the pendent itself was a single diamond, about the size of a large pigeon egg. Was the father of the bride a powerful man? Well, by himself nobody would take the slightest notice of him, but in company with his wife anybody with half a brain would know to step very carefully indeed. In Javanese society statements are never made directly, one needs to be able to understand that which is not spoken, that which is not obvious. One speaks by not speaking.

6th January 2023, 12:08 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	David, regarding the word "pusaka". It has several meanings, in Bahasa Indonesia it simple means "heirloom". In Javanese it can mean an heirloom or revered object that has been passed down through a family, it can mean any sort of inheritance, it can mean a family ricefield, it can mean any weapon that the owner considers to be a personal talisman. In colloquial speech, people who are a part of keris culture will sometimes use the word "pusaka" to loosely refer to any weapon. I personally think that the already colloquial use of this word has become even more loose as it is used by some dealers.

6th January 2023, 03:42 AM	#14
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	David; The explanation by Alan about 'pusaka ' is exactly what is also meant in the Malay world of Malaysia and Southern Thailand. And there is no taboo or restriction whatever from selling whatever heirlooms(pusaka). Except for personal emotional attachment to it. No mumbo jumbo about spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever. At least in modern Malay muslim world. With regards to keris competition in Malaysia and Southern Thailand I've been to many (but not participating in the competition itself) and know many of the pioneers of these competitions and judges. Basically the original intention was so as to generate more interest and encourage more people to love their keris culture and to bring to the public the best kerises for all to appreciate. There are specific criteria for judging and these are done as objectively as the judges can. Criteria include types of blades, complete and undamaged blade without and repairs, symbolisms (ketandaan), pamor, etc.The quality of hilts and Sheath and added decorations .Old antiques kerises and new creations are judged separately.

6th January 2023, 08:38 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I think that what you relate in post #25 is probably pretty true of Indonesia also Green, however, my experience of Indonesia is limited to Central Jawa, mainly Solo, East Jawa, mainly Malang, places south & east of Malang, Madura, and Bali. I have spent very little time in major cities like Jakarta & Surabaya, in fact I have not been to Jakarta since 1978. Virtually all the contact I have with people in Jawa is with quite conservative Javanese people on the one hand, and very humble grass roots Javanese people on the other hand. Most of what I know about keris, most of what I believe about keris I learnt in Solo in the period between 1966 and 2015. Most of that instruction came from men who began their journey with the keris prior to WWII. I think all these people have now passed, but I still have friends and acquaintances in Solo who are of senior generations, and from what I can understand, their values do not seem to vary much from the values of my past teachers. I have set forth in post #22 my observations in respect of keris display.It seems to me that both the bulk of the people I used to know & who have already passed, and the bulk of people I still know and who are still in this world hold the opinion that keris display of virtually any kind is, in a word, crass, and not really the correct way for a Javanese gentleman to behave. There is an immense variation between overall Indonesian standards & values as they are now, and the standards & values of conservative Central Javanese traditionalists.

7th January 2023, 01:48 AM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Actually, the use to describe any weapon that the owner considers to be a personal talisman is listed in my big Javanese dictionary as normal usage, not colloquial. But with the dealer usage, yeah, sure the intent is marketing.

8th January 2023, 08:42 PM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Keris, tombak and other items of tosan aji are regarded as having protective qualities. When they are on display in a traditional Javanese home they are usually put in a strategic position that the people living in that home believe will protect the home & themselves from evil. Blawongs were & are wall decorations, sometimes intended just as a decoration, like a painting or framed picture, sometimes because the people living in the house regard the blawong& its motif as protective. This is very much the case in rural Central Jawa. Somewhere along the way people started to combine the protective qualities of the blawong with the protective qualities of the keris. Blawongs were not originally intended to display keris. As for the ploncon/jagrak, Sid is dead right when he says that display of keris dress is totally different to display of the keris itself. There can be a number of reasons why easily reachable keris could be considered a good idea. For instance, let's say you are a Javanese gentleman dressed in full traditional attire, you're on your way to a wedding, or a party or some other event, you call in to have a yarn with your mate along the way. It is not possible to sit comfortably in a normal lounge chair with a wangkingan stuck in the back of your setagen, so you remove it, then what do you do with it? If your mate has a ploncon in his front room, you put the keris into that, and when you're leaving you turn it into a wangkingan again. Then we have dealers:- they need some way to display what they are selling. Keris dress is fragile, a ploncon helps to prevent damage. What I've written relates to Javanese keris, but what about the little statues that are used to hold Balinese keris? These were originally placed on the front verandah next to the front door, a visitor placed his keris into the holder when entered the house or sat.

8th January 2023, 09:08 PM	#21
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Sid, I think your post #36 is close to the mark from one perspective, but long, long before the internet came along, collectors and students of the keris, and just about everything else collectable were going along to periodic meetings and taking their favourite or recent possessions along to show other people. Sometimes there might have been an element of flamboyance & self aggrandizement, but I feel that it was mostly just interested people associating with other interested people. Exhibitions still happen, apart from keris I have other interests --- watches, paper weights, sea shells, gemstones, ancient coins & etc &etc --- when the opportunity arises I go along to exhibitions of these sorts of things, really, for no other purpose than just to look at them, because I like looking at them. With keris it is a wee bit different:- we are dealing with a cultural icon that has sacred elements. I feel that the people who understand this are more often than not inclined to to be somewhat conservative with the items they are prepared to display, but the pure collector who has little or no interest in the back story of the keris is interested in other qualities and all the baggage that the keris carries is of little interest to him. Yeah, for sure sometimes the dealers get out there and wave things around to try to raise interest, but it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what a fair price is for the item he wishes to buy, and many things can affect a fair price. I recently paid around 6K more for a used motor vehicle than was recognised as the going rate for that particular vehicle, year & model. I reckon I got a bargain. Why? This was the legendary ten year old vehicle that had only been driven to church on Sundays by the legendary Little Old Lady. It was still in showroom condition with exceptionally low mileage. Lots of things can affect a price of anything, a buyer needs to know what he is doing, he needs to strive to know as much or more than the dealers.

17th January 2023, 12:17 PM	#23
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	I had a thought on this. Could not wanting to share or show keris be an Islamic precept or cultural practice? Pre Islam might keris have been proudly shown? Look at the old stone sculptures. No shame there in displaying. Another point is that the keris had to fit into the new islamic paradigm. Keeping it hidden might have been one way of navigating this? In Hinduism and other Islamic societies weapons are shown off proudly. Keris had to deal with particular issues that meant keeping them under the radar might have been best perhaps? Wjat is the case in Bali?

17th January 2023, 08:27 PM	#25
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Sid, social attitudes & mores change over time, but foundation philosophies that are the hall marks of a society rarely change, they might be expressed in varying ways as time passes, but the threads that bind a society seem to remain. The way in which the members of a society see the world in general seems to remain more or less consistent. What can & does change is the individual. When a member of one society moves into a different society his way of seeing & understanding the world around him will be altered to a degree by the people with whom he interacts on a daily basis. When the foundation philosophies of an entire society are impacted by the adoption of a new set of values & standards it is inevitable that the way in which the members of that society understand the world around them will be altered. The keris in Jawa is a cultural icon, and the way in which that cultural icon is understood is not at variance with the ways in which the Javanese people understand the world in which they live. This overarching characteristic of Javanese society can be thought of as a "Magic World View". There is a world that we see and a world that we cannot see, these two worlds overlap to some degree and it is believed that they can influence each other. This is not a unique Javanese way of thinking. It seems to be something that is a universal trait of humanity. An easy example would be the use of prayer. Yes, the People of the Book pray, but so do all other members of the human race --- well, at least they do when they act like human beings. It seems to be a matter of choice whether people believe in things they cannot see. The "magic" qualities of a keris go back a long way, possibly there was a flow-on from the Indian (Sub-Continent) beliefs associated with weaponry, but even these beliefs are not really unique to Indian society. Similar beliefs have permeated European cultures, think of the Vikings, and exist --- or perhaps existed --- amongst the Maori people of New Zealand. I think we all know the Mpu Gandring story? The super powerful keris that is central to it? This was way back in the Singosari era, long before Islam had made an impact. When Islam came into Javanese society the Javanese people found that the Sufic philosophies were very close to the philosophies that already existed in Javanese society, over time these Sufic ideas & beliefs were absorbed into the existing Javanese philosophies that were based on indigenous (ancestor worship, animism) beliefs and Buddhist-Hindu beliefs, and the result was Kejawen, which is sometimes referred to as "Javanese Islam". The ways in which Javanese people think of and interact with the keris are really no different to the ways in which they think of and interact with other sacred objects. In essence, the keris is a sacred object, in its association with the ancestors and with Siwa it is about as sacred as we can get. Never forget:- a man's personal keris (and he might have many) represents the man himself. This current idea that keris can be displayed and have awards given might be something that people with a Javanese heritage subscribe to, but these people have to a very large degree strayed from the ways of their ancestors. This is not my opinion alone, I cannot count the number of times I have heard this same sentiment expressed by people in Central Jawa who pride themselves on observance of traditional Javanese values. There seems to be no doubt at all that the current trend towards display of keris is commercially driven. In simple terms it is good for business, in the same way that display of motor vehicles, farm machinery and business equipment is good for business. And in the same way that exhibitions of antiques in general or art works in general is good for business. But the Javanese keris is not just an art work or an antique, it is a sacred object and deserves to be treated as such.

17th January 2023, 11:11 PM	#26
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Thanks Alan Is there a different standard that applies to non Jawanese keris re display? Eg Sumatran or Malay/ Bugis keris? Are these keris viewed differently by folk from these areas? Islam may have had a different influence on keris culture in these areas perhaps influencing keris design and its place in society? And what about Bali the last bastion of the old religion? The keris has been preserved there unaltered shall we say with all its iconography. Are they displayed there or are they treated in the same manner as in Jawa?

18th January 2023, 05:17 AM	#27
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Sid, I'd like to rephrase your question:- Are keris thought of in other S.E. Asian societies as they are in traditional Javanese society? I believe that varying socio-cultural values are attached to the keris in some other societies, but I have not done the necessary research in these other societies to be certain of this. Based upon the limited research I have done it appears that the keris spread into other South East Asian societies in the form of gifts from Javanese rulers and traders. The nature of the keris as a gift is as a binding force. The well known gifts from old time Dutch East Indies rulers to Dutch monarchs were viewed by the givers as gifts that bound the recipient, the Dutch Monarch, to the giver, who was the Javanese or other monarch. The power that endows the gift of a keris as a binding agent is the relationship of Basuki (Naga Vasuki) to the keris. When the keris is thought of as symbolic of the Naga, the specific Naga it symbolises is Naga Basuki. A reading of this:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keris-naga might clarify. So, the keris spread into other societies, from Jawa, as a token that had a binding force. However, only the keris spread, the complete belief system that was associated with the keris seems not to have spread, and perhaps the beliefs now associated with the keris were not a part of keris belief during the time when the spread of the keris to other societies did occur. In pre-Islamic Jawa it seems that all references to the keris are in its function as a weapon, and occasionally as a weapon that was endowed with magical powers. It appears that in societies other than Jawa, this is still the way in which the keris is thought of. Islam has undoubtedly played a part in the way in which the keris is now thought of in Jawa, as well as in other places, however to explore this is far beyond the possibilities of an on-line discussion group. In respect of Bali. It would appear that the puputans did much to destroy the Balinese belief in the power of the ancestors to assist in times of trouble. That contact with the ancestors flowed from a parallel dimension, to the perceived dimension, through the pusaka kerises, most especially the Royal Pusakas. The failure of the power believed to exist in the Niskala to assist those who needed assistance in the Sekala seems to have undermined Balinese beliefs, some of those beliefs were associated with the keris The puputans were not ritual suicide, as they are so often painted, they were statements by the ruling classes that an era had come to an end and that they had no wish to live in the coming era. After the puputans the Balinese people were forced to find a new way in which to rationalise the world in which they lived. Because of this fracture of Balinese society as it was prior to Dutch oversight, and as it became after Dutch oversight it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible to compare the way in which the keris is thought of in Bali now, with how it might have been thought of in Bali before the puputans. Ergo, we cannot carry out a comparison of Balinese values as they are now with Javanese values as they are now. Time alters perspective Sid. To my mind it is pointless to try to compare current Balinese ways with Balinese ways of the past, or with Javanese ways of either the past or present. Yes, today's Bali has its roots in pre-Islamic Mojopahit, but it is not pre-Islamic Mojopahit. Even religion as now observed in Bali varies from the Bali-Hindu religious system as it had developed prior to the formation of the state of Indonesia. When Indonesia was formed the new state included religious freedom in its structure, but for a religion to be recognised as an acceptable religion this required it to be a monotheistic religion. In Bali this was achieved by recognition of Iswara as the "One God" (Ida Sanghyang Widi Wasa), the deities of the old Bali-Hindu belief system were then officially regarded as manifestations of this "One God". The new faith was essentially the same as the old faith, but a new philosophy was put in place to permit Balinese people to be voting members of the new Indonesian society. Bali-Hindu is now Agama Hindu Dharma. One might say that only the names have been changed to protect the innocent --- or something like that. During the 1970's, 1980's & 1990's I was unable to find anybody in Bali who would have been regarded as an Ahli Keris in Solo. I met a lot of keris interested people, one of these people was a distant relative and a Brahmin. I did get a little bit of keris understanding from this man, but it was nothing similar to what I was getting in Jawa. In Bali, I have never seen any evidence of open display of keris from previous times, and with the involvement of Balinese people, except limited museum display. I have seen keris display in Bali, organised for commercial reasons and involving business people from outside Bali, craftsmen, and Balinese people who do not necessarily subscribe to all Balinese beliefs. The Balinese keris has only come back into Balinese society during the last 25 years or so. In the late 1990's through into the early 2000's, Balinese people began to believe that the problems that were being experienced in the world around them were in large part due to their neglect of traditional ways & values. Part of this neglect was recognised as being the neglect of the traditional values associated with the keris. This was the point at which the keris began to rise again as a Balinese societal icon. Prior to year 2000 I doubt that anybody would have found a genuine authority on the Balinese keris, in Bali. But look at the difference now:- it seems we have literally thousands of Balinese experts on the Balinese keris who can provide us with "traditional knowledge". Who were their teachers? When Pande Wayan Suteja Neka produced his Big Bali Keris Book, why did he need to employ a young gentleman from Solo to write the text? Sid, getting in depth understanding of Javanese keris can be a very difficult and frustrating pursuit, but getting an in depth understanding of the keris in Bali is full of so many pitfalls & dead ends that in my opinion no true, genuine understanding of the position of the keris in Balinese society prior to Dutch oversight is possible. There are too many fractures in the line of understanding.