the green tomahawk of the Rogers Rangers?

[kronckew]

Looks like a common carpenter's hammer poll hatchet & nail-puller notched blade, painted with whatever paint the owner had on hand at the time. Probably many million of these rusting away in tool boxes around North America and beyond.

[kronckew]

A "Rodger's Rangers" tomahawk replica, it would have looked more like this:

[M ELEY]

I'm afraid Wayne is correct. This is a common shingling ax. Although some of these tool types certainly date back to the Revolution, this specimen would probably date at latest to mid-19th. It is a cast piece with a notch for pulling nails. Sometimes, these notches were wide and used as a beaver trap chain pull, but this example has the more common nail slot.

Rogers' Rangers would have most likely carried a spiked ax/tomahawk type, but it should be noted that the so called hammer pole axes were also popular with the 'mountain men'. Contrary to popular belief, these early hammer pole axes were not used to hammer nails! The 'hammer' end was to balance the blade when swinging it.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...hese early hammer pole axes were not used to hammer nails! The 'hammer' end was to balance the blade when swinging it.

A hammer poll is also useful for driving tent stakes.

[Interested Party]

Sorry to agree. It is a carpenters framing hatchet. I've owned a few. It is a much more common tool than the much more effective carpenters shaping hatchet which had a chisel type bevel on the blade and a symmetrically shaped head so that it could be flipped for a right or left hander. Both relics of time before power tools were common. I used both a lot working in areas without power before battery tools and very light portable generators. If you work much on old houses, you can see the marks of these on the framing members where material was "hogged out," removed rapidly and coarsely to make things fit.

I am going to slightly disagree, maybe more clarify MELEY's statement on this particular poll. It is a hammer head and a very effective one. The blade serves as a poll and really drives a nail. If you are in attentive you can lose your fingers. With this shape poll I would bet on pre-1950 manufacture. Look on old tool forums and you can find more info. There is proball a stamp on the side of the head under all the gunk.

[JoeCanada42]

hi thanks everyone for your comments and interest so far.
to clarify it was sold as an antique hatchet, no attribute to rogers rangers, this is only my fantasy,.
I did think this axe could possibly be old enough, I have come across many old old tools locally.
apparently this form of axe was popular circa 1760
how does one tell if it was cast or forged?
the hammer poll on my axe is cylindrical not octagonal like many I see.
is there any difference in the 19c vs 18c ones?

I found this YouTube video very informative

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHyZhRFWsUs

at 10:10 he talks about my form hatchet.

also I think its likely there was a wide variety in the styles of hatchet the rangers carried, and possibly they had carried this form. he had members from all backgrounds,
I thought this hatchet could possibly date to the fur trade and been used by a "coureur de bois".

[Hotspur]

Old style roofing/shake hammer/hatchet.

If I may clarify, for trimming and nailing cedar shakes.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Looks like a common carpenter's hammer poll hatchet & nail-puller notched blade, painted with whatever paint the owner had on hand at the time. Probably many million of these rusting away in tool boxes around North America and beyond.

Absolutely right Kronckew. Attached are my entry into the rusting carpenters hatchet competition. Officially named a shinglers hatchet. Beside it is a Carpenters shaper called by catalogs a broad hatchet. I guess I learned a regional vocabulary from my family when they were teaching me obsolete trades. Several members of my household when I was young up had grown up on self-sufficient farms where they had even made their own thread to weave into cloth and then dye with natural dyes. Not hippie communes but people who had never lived any other way. It was a good education that has benefited me my whole life as far as what random rusty objects are.

The terminology is getting confusing. Here are two shots from a 1939 Keen Kutter catalog, one from a 1920 Montgomery Ward catalog. These should help clarify the discussion. I left the URL in the edit. Archive.org is an excellent source of factory-made goods, if a little confusing and inefficient in its filters. They have catalogs back to 1767. Incidentally these items cost most of a poor man's wages for a day or more. In Appalachia a lot of workers who were paid in cash still earned $0.15 -20/hr. $0.25 was considered really good wages till the minimum wage was established.

I want to thank the moderators for letting this discussion continue on its natural course. Who knows, maybe we will get a post of a Rogers Rangers hatchet. I always read as a kid that the ax was the number one weapon for poor settlers in the push to and over the Appalachian Mountains. One day I would love to see a post of a homemade short sword that was supposedly used to great effect in the It the dense underbrush of the Carolinas' forest against the British (does this sound reminiscent of Indonesian and Philippino tactics to anyone else). Unfortunately, I fear they were converted back into agricultural tools 200 years ago like it seems the Scottish broad swords that were brought over may have been as well. The next time I am lucky enough to visit my dad I will snap a shot of an old trade spear head that was slightly reforged into a gardening trowel that was my grandfather's favorite for transplanting wildflowers to my grandmother's garden as an example of this phenomenon.

[David R]

Here is my contender in the "trade axe" category. Posted before, but fun to tag it on a thread about such. As you can see, it's a bit different to the industrially made axes/hatchets.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

...I would love to see a post of a homemade short sword that was supposedly used to great effect in the It the dense underbrush of the Carolinas' forest against the British ...

This sword was made by a village blacksmith for Natty Bumppo in 1755, he carried and used it thru-out the French & Indian wars of the period. It was bequeathed to his descendants, who used it in the Carolinas ravaged by Cornwallis' cavalry in the revolutionary war later in the century. The photo was taken by his current descendent, who wishes to remain anonymous.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kronckew

This sword was made by a village blacksmith for Natty Bumppo in 1755, he carried and used it thru-out the French & Indian wars of the period. It was bequeathed to his descendants, who used it in the Carolinas ravaged by Cornwallis' cavalry in the revolutionary war later in the century. The photo was taken by his current descendent, who wishes to remain anonymous.

Looks like a Filipino ginunting.

[M ELEY]

David's example is indeed a nice trade ax. I've seen this pattern on French trade axes coming to the Americas. The fact that it has a maker's stamp makes me think more early 19th c, but there were some early (18th c) axes with maker marks, but they usually were accompanied by maker stamps (trade marks like flower shapes, diamond pattern stamps, etc). You know, I can't tell for sure, but it seems to have evidence of hand forging. The problem is, axes that were blacksmith-made and done well is hard to tell and cast (post-1820's) axe heads often had their seam-lines filed down to appear more seamless. Better, close-up pics can help identify

[David R]

In the hand it looks to be of the wrap around type with an inserted edge, but pitting hides a lot of this sort of detail. What I can say is that it takes a very sharp edge and was my favourite camp axe, retired when I realised that it was probably an antique with some history.
Bought off "Bodger's" stall, at a reenactors fair.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Ian

Looks like a Filipino ginunting.

It was a joke response to 'interested party's previous post's request.


He wanted to see a story, so I made up a cheeky story for him. It is of course a 20c villager ginunting made by Jun Silva in the Philippines. About as far from the Carolinas as possible.

Still, would have worked well in the swamps & woods there, better than Mel Gibson's tomahawk (in the Patriot) I suspect. (It's one of the sharpest blades I own)

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by kronckew

It was a joke response to 'interested party's previous post's request.

He wanted to see a story, so I made up a cheeky story for him. It is of course a 20c villager ginunting made by Jun Silva in the Philippines. About as far from the Carolinas as possible.

Still, would have worked well in the swamps & woods there, better than Mel Gibson's tomahawk (in the Patriot) I suspect. (It's one of the sharpest blades I own)

I'm not looking a story, but an example with providence. It was checky though. Natty Bumppo was a Vermonter, a different ethnic group, and an English apologist, not a Jacobite refugee. If I remember correctly Cooper had to flee the US for a time as his political views were unpopular, but a man ahead of his time in that England and US eventually developed a "special" relationship a hundred years later and archeological evidence gave his books view of the French Indian war validity after nearly a hundred years of it being considered over the top in the description of the collateral damage incurred to the frontier settlements.

And yes, this blade would have worked well in underbrush and swamps. It looks like a chisel edge that would produce a very smooth cut on the backhand stroke for a right hander. Like a broad ax or a slicker chisel. A little forward curve for vines and a sharpened false edge allowing clever falso dritto and montante sotto mano cuts. As a utility blade I have wondered if the blade was wrapped in cloth, leather, or leaves so it could be gripped near the false edge, and the false edge then could be used to skin animals? Off in the ethno weeds here.

Who knows maybe these ideas will grow in my mind. Looking for these short swords and Scottish basket hilts in the Carolinas could be for me what the espada ancha and verdadera destreza are for Mr. McDougall.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I'm not looking a story, but an example with providence. It was checky though. ...
Who knows maybe these ideas will grow in my mind. Looking for these short swords and Scottish basket hilts in the Carolinas could be for me what the espada ancha and verdadera destreza are for Mr. McDougall.

You didn't mention 'provenance' in the original what if.


Fortuitous, you mentioned Scottish basket hilts (I don't have one). I've been looking for info on why the UK switches from the protective but heavy basket hilt to a simple crossbar guard as the 'service hilt'.The last UK Officer to actually carry one into battle (as far as I have heard) was 'Mad Jack' Churchill, and he had the basket hilted version. And a piper!

[fernando]

[QUOTE=Interested Party;274105 ... I want to thank the moderators for letting this discussion continue on its natural course...[/QUOTE]
So we did. Just a pity its natural course didn't divert from modern to earlier implements. Topic not to serve as an example; only an exception ... in context .

Keep safe ... and remember the Forum scope .



.

[Interested Party]

David R, thanks for the example. No seam visible do you think it is a punched eye? That wide opening at the back would make it harder to break the handle where it meets the head. Where was this ax? from? Is it an ax in scale or closer to a hatcher? M Eley would you call this an early poll design?

kronckew, that was just mean From what I heard these were oiften made them from crosscut saw blades. Corn knives, tobacco knives, and cabbage knives in order of size were also made from sawblades. Later for smaller cutting tools mechanical hacksaw blades were the gold standard, higher carbon, a very hard temper, abrasion resistant but very brittle. My guess if these blades ever existed, they became the above-mentioned tools, then butcher knives and small belt knives, scrapers, and finally rust. As I said before I would love to see one with providence.

Fernando, I think it has been a productive exception. I learned how valuable a ax or hatchet was in the late 19th and early 20th century. Both by the variety of specialized designs and in cost. In poorer parts of the US in the period of the Montgomery Ward catalog 15 cents (there is a change in times there isn't even a cent symbol on a modern keyboard) was a common wage for someone using this tool. At that rate this half hatchet took 15 hours of work to buy. Now for a roofer, carpenter it would take 1 or 2. For some reason I thought this forum went to 1920. 1900 is a much rounder number though. In the Ethnographic category it seems based on a cultures technological level?

[kronckew]

Old used Saw blades can make excellent knives and swords. Especially if properly heat treated. The Philippines has a number of excellent pandays and sources for these.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

... In the Ethnographic category it seems based on a cultures technological level? ...

The text in the scope would be self explanatory; above all a certain age, prevention of reproductions, items only within antique weaponry ... are the game.