On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

Mercenary · 17th June 2022, 10:34 AM

Linguistics is an exact science. History is also an exact science, if historians do it, and not politicians or populists. Ethnography is generally reality itself. These three sciences are essential in the study of traditional weapons especially oriental ones.
All sciences are exact sciences if they are practiced by professionals. If physics, chemistry or molecular biology will be dealt with by art historians and other connoisseurs of beauty (or dealers in chemical reagents, synchrophasotrons or microscopes trade), then these sciences will immediately cease to be exact sciences.

Mercenary · 17th June 2022, 10:40 AM

"The Indian Sword" by Philip Rawson is the only book in the field of Indian weapons research that can be called a scientific work.

ariel · 17th June 2022, 03:01 PM

Rawson has my respect: his book was the first one dedicated specifically to Indian arms.
But to call his book “…the only ….scientific work…” is rather funny. Rawson was never interested in arms history. This book was an assignment given to him to describe the collection of the V&A Museum. He never ventured outside of it and was not even certain whether other similar collections existed elsewhere, India not even mentioned. As a result, he assigned names to different objects simply by their percent-wise representation of labels on which they were listed in the V&A archives. He was lumping mechanical damascus and wootz together: Fig.6: “ watered mechanical damascus of the Kirk Narduban pattern”, pp. 19-20 describing 4 patterns of Persian damascus: Kirk Narduban, Bidr or Qum, Begami and Sham, all of which were allegedly produced by a “method of mechanical damascus/ pattern welding” etc, etc, etc. His bibliography list doesn’t even mention books by Buttin and Stone. In short, while sorely needed in the 1960’s as the “first”, this book outlived its purpose because of not being “right”.

Having finished his assignment, Rawson published nothing more in the arms history field, concentrating instead on Oriental erotic art. The only conceivable connection between them is his repeated mention of the “ phallic energy” of Indian swords:-)

Mercenary · 17th June 2022, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The only conceivable connection between them is his repeated mention of the “ phallic energy” of Indian swords

That is why swords and any other weapons are used in puja ceremony. The "phallic energy" - this is in short form for Europeans, so as not to explain for a long time. By the way, I'm going to explain this in detail soon. In Russian, of course.

ariel · 19th June 2022, 05:46 AM

In your future paper you might want to discuss sword positions on the altar: edge down on the altar might indeed signify phallic energy. But according to what is shown on the pic you posted ( the sides of the tulwar blade lying flat on the altar) male Hindu believers had Peyronie’s disease .
Feel free not acknowledging my contribution to your paper.

Ian · 21st June 2022, 02:21 AM

Guys, you have made your points. Move on please!

gp · 9th July 2022, 10:37 AM

why does this discussion and a few others , neither offence nor disrespect intended, reminds me a little of the movie "snatch"

"Just because it is written, does not make it so"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89sD6StyzXk&t=13s

https://www.spreukenengezegdes.nl/in...ot-make-it-so/

☺☻☺

Mercenary · 9th July 2022, 12:11 PM

Just to uderstand the rules of the forum and how the moderation works here. It is OK for the forum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

In your future paper you might want
to discuss sword positions on the altar: edge down on the altar might indeed signify phallic energy. But according to what is shown on the pic you posted ( the sides of the tulwar blade lying flat on the altar) male Hindu believers had Peyronie’s disease .
Feel free not acknowledging my contribution to your paper.

ariel · 9th July 2022, 03:14 PM

Man, it was just a joke:-)
We all need to lighten up occasionally. Serious discussions get too heavy and oppressive:-)
You yourself use jokes and I appreciate them.
Peace?

17th June 2022, 10:34 AM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Linguistics is an exact science. History is also an exact science, if historians do it, and not politicians or populists. Ethnography is generally reality itself. These three sciences are essential in the study of traditional weapons especially oriental ones. All sciences are exact sciences if they are practiced by professionals. If physics, chemistry or molecular biology will be dealt with by art historians and other connoisseurs of beauty (or dealers in chemical reagents, synchrophasotrons or microscopes trade), then these sciences will immediately cease to be exact sciences. Last edited by Mercenary; 17th June 2022 at 10:44 AM.

17th June 2022, 03:01 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Rawson has my respect: his book was the first one dedicated specifically to Indian arms. But to call his book “…the only ….scientific work…” is rather funny. Rawson was never interested in arms history. This book was an assignment given to him to describe the collection of the V&A Museum. He never ventured outside of it and was not even certain whether other similar collections existed elsewhere, India not even mentioned. As a result, he assigned names to different objects simply by their percent-wise representation of labels on which they were listed in the V&A archives. He was lumping mechanical damascus and wootz together: Fig.6: “ watered mechanical damascus of the Kirk Narduban pattern”, pp. 19-20 describing 4 patterns of Persian damascus: Kirk Narduban, Bidr or Qum, Begami and Sham, all of which were allegedly produced by a “method of mechanical damascus/ pattern welding” etc, etc, etc. His bibliography list doesn’t even mention books by Buttin and Stone. In short, while sorely needed in the 1960’s as the “first”, this book outlived its purpose because of not being “right”. Having finished his assignment, Rawson published nothing more in the arms history field, concentrating instead on Oriental erotic art. The only conceivable connection between them is his repeated mention of the “ phallic energy” of Indian swords:-) Last edited by Ian; 19th June 2022 at 02:25 AM. Reason: Removal of off-topic and argumentative material

21st June 2022, 02:21 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,395	Moderator's note! Guys, you have made your points. Move on please!

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17th June 2022, 10:40 AM	#2
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	"The Indian Sword" by Philip Rawson is the only book in the field of Indian weapons research that can be called a scientific work.

19th June 2022, 05:46 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In your future paper you might want to discuss sword positions on the altar: edge down on the altar might indeed signify phallic energy. But according to what is shown on the pic you posted ( the sides of the tulwar blade lying flat on the altar) male Hindu believers had Peyronie’s disease . Feel free not acknowledging my contribution to your paper.

9th July 2022, 10:37 AM	#7
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 830	why does this discussion and a few others , neither offence nor disrespect intended, reminds me a little of the movie "snatch" "Just because it is written, does not make it so" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89sD6StyzXk&t=13s https://www.spreukenengezegdes.nl/in...ot-make-it-so/ ☺☻☺

9th July 2022, 03:14 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Man, it was just a joke:-) We all need to lighten up occasionally. Serious discussions get too heavy and oppressive:-) You yourself use jokes and I appreciate them. Peace?