Arabic....North African curved dagger...comments / help

ErnestoJuan · 8th June 2006, 09:41 PM

Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as:

" A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price."

here is the url for piccies:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

katana · 8th June 2006, 10:07 PM

Other than the longer blade, they are indeed very similar, thankyou for the link

ErnestoJuan · 8th June 2006, 10:27 PM

My pleasure.

VANDOO · 9th June 2006, 01:24 AM

THE OLDER EXAMPLES OF THESE ARE QUITE NICE AND THE INLAYING OF METAL INTO THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD AS WELL AS THE INLAYED TWISTED WIRE IN THE BLADES IS UNIQUE. PERHAPS THEY DID HAVE A FUNCTION OTHER THAN CEREMONY IN THE PAST AS I HAVE SEEN THEM IN PICTURES OF VERY OLD COLLECTIONS. THE NEWER ONES WITH THE PLASTIC IMITATION CORAL INLAY ARE SHOWY BUT THE WORKMANSHIP IS INFERIOR TO THE OLDER ONES.

ariel · 9th June 2006, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnestoJuan

Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as:

" A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price."

here is the url for piccies:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

This one has a blade that is very much "flyssa"-like. Algiers comes to mind right away.

katana · 9th June 2006, 05:12 PM

I've been send further photos by the seller, I've tried to make them large enough so that the detail is easier to see, perhaps these could help to decide whether this is a tourist piece or something a little better

.
Opinions gentlemen please........ thanks

Emanuel · 9th June 2006, 09:01 PM

Katana,

On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well.

Ernesto, you are right that shulas are different, but other than shula and possibly the small flyssa I don't know of any maghrib weapon similar to these "nimcha" that could have influenced the appearance of its blade.
-attaching my shula for comparison-

galvano · 9th June 2006, 10:00 PM

There is the Moroccan nimcha.
It is a long sword.
galvano

Emanuel · 9th June 2006, 10:07 PM

Yes Galvano, but that is for the hilt, and I was talking about the blade

The ceremonial nimchas are called that just because of the characteristic hilt I think, but the blade type is wholly different and it's only similar to the shula and flyssa (as far as I know, which is little).
I am planning a trip to Algeria in about a year or so, and I will definitely pass through Morocco and have a look at the many weapons they have...
Emanuel

-oh yes! there is the koummiya, but then the blade is quite different, is used differently and it doesn't bear incised decorations-

Flavio · 9th June 2006, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galvano

There is the Moroccan nimcha.
It is a long sword.
galvano

A very nice nimcha, Galvano

ErnestoJuan · 9th June 2006, 10:40 PM

Dear Manolo,

A very nice 19th century shula you have there. I have one that is quite similar. With regards to these so called " ceremonial nimcha's" , I think that the blade of the 20th century shula really come close, not the 19th century variant.

I agree with you that the origin of the "ceremonial nimchas" is tough to pinpoint. Like you, I do not believe that they are tourist items. Who knows, maybe your planned trip will shine a light on this issue. Oh, and bring me back some rhino hilted koummya's will you ?

Attached are pictures of a 20th century shula I have. Again, I still do not have the time to take proper pictures etc of my collection due to private matters.

However, within the very near future I intend to post lots of pics of my north african collection.

Well, here are the pictures:

katana · 10th June 2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Katana,

On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well.-

Manolo, what an interesting Nimcha.
I have posted two more pic's of the blade, IMHO I think you are right there is a false edge. Scaling the blade thickness with the carved pattern of the scabbard I think the blade is thicker.

I think, taking measurements from the photos and scaling them up I believe the blade spine is approx. 4 mm and seems to have distal taper.

See what you think

Emanuel · 10th June 2006, 11:34 PM

Hello Katana,
I would think that a 4mm blade can be useful in a fight, but then again I know very little about it. Your nimcha is definitely not a toy like mine, but I wonder how it would be used. Does one stab or slash with it? And what effect do the incisions on the spine have on cutting? How does it feel in-hand? Is the large hilt helpful or a nuisance? Mine is ridiculously large and useless, but yours may be functional.
Let's say it is the old, genuine ceremonial/wedding nimcha like VANDOO says, and leave it at that, because I really have no idea if you can fight with it or not

I'll keep my eye out for any more info on these daggers, but I think yours is a pretty good example.
Emanuel

Michael Blalock · 11th June 2006, 02:25 AM

My daughter spent last summer living with a Berber family in a small village in the Atlas mountains of Morocco. She described a ceremony in the village where all the men wore daggers, played drums and danced. At no other time did she see any daggers worn. She told me their daggers were similar to the couple of Khoumiyas I own. Perhaps these ritual dances explain the preponderance of non-functional styles of knifes from Morocco. I would ask her more but she's in Ecuador this summer where I'll be visiting her in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any ethnographic weapons available there.

9th June 2006, 05:12 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I've been send further photos by the seller, I've tried to make them large enough so that the detail is easier to see, perhaps these could help to decide whether this is a tourist piece or something a little better . Opinions gentlemen please........ thanks Attached Images Last edited by katana; 9th June 2006 at 05:27 PM.

9th June 2006, 09:01 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Katana, On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well. Ernesto, you are right that shulas are different, but other than shula and possibly the small flyssa I don't know of any maghrib weapon similar to these "nimcha" that could have influenced the appearance of its blade. -attaching my shula for comparison- Attached Images

9th June 2006, 10:00 PM	#8
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	hi all There is the Moroccan nimcha. It is a long sword. galvano Attached Images

9th June 2006, 10:07 PM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Always wanted one of those sabres...beautiful!! Yes Galvano, but that is for the hilt, and I was talking about the blade The ceremonial nimchas are called that just because of the characteristic hilt I think, but the blade type is wholly different and it's only similar to the shula and flyssa (as far as I know, which is little). I am planning a trip to Algeria in about a year or so, and I will definitely pass through Morocco and have a look at the many weapons they have... Emanuel -oh yes! there is the koummiya, but then the blade is quite different, is used differently and it doesn't bear incised decorations-

9th June 2006, 10:40 PM	#11
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Dear Manolo, A very nice 19th century shula you have there. I have one that is quite similar. With regards to these so called " ceremonial nimcha's" , I think that the blade of the 20th century shula really come close, not the 19th century variant. I agree with you that the origin of the "ceremonial nimchas" is tough to pinpoint. Like you, I do not believe that they are tourist items. Who knows, maybe your planned trip will shine a light on this issue. Oh, and bring me back some rhino hilted koummya's will you ? Attached are pictures of a 20th century shula I have. Again, I still do not have the time to take proper pictures etc of my collection due to private matters. However, within the very near future I intend to post lots of pics of my north african collection. Well, here are the pictures: Attached Images

8th June 2006, 09:41 PM	#1
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as: " A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price." here is the url for piccies: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

8th June 2006, 10:07 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Other than the longer blade, they are indeed very similar, thankyou for the link

8th June 2006, 10:27 PM	#3
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	My pleasure.

9th June 2006, 01:24 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE OLDER EXAMPLES OF THESE ARE QUITE NICE AND THE INLAYING OF METAL INTO THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD AS WELL AS THE INLAYED TWISTED WIRE IN THE BLADES IS UNIQUE. PERHAPS THEY DID HAVE A FUNCTION OTHER THAN CEREMONY IN THE PAST AS I HAVE SEEN THEM IN PICTURES OF VERY OLD COLLECTIONS. THE NEWER ONES WITH THE PLASTIC IMITATION CORAL INLAY ARE SHOWY BUT THE WORKMANSHIP IS INFERIOR TO THE OLDER ONES.

10th June 2006, 11:34 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Katana, I would think that a 4mm blade can be useful in a fight, but then again I know very little about it. Your nimcha is definitely not a toy like mine, but I wonder how it would be used. Does one stab or slash with it? And what effect do the incisions on the spine have on cutting? How does it feel in-hand? Is the large hilt helpful or a nuisance? Mine is ridiculously large and useless, but yours may be functional. Let's say it is the old, genuine ceremonial/wedding nimcha like VANDOO says, and leave it at that, because I really have no idea if you can fight with it or not I'll keep my eye out for any more info on these daggers, but I think yours is a pretty good example. Emanuel

11th June 2006, 02:25 AM	#14
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	My daughter spent last summer living with a Berber family in a small village in the Atlas mountains of Morocco. She described a ceremony in the village where all the men wore daggers, played drums and danced. At no other time did she see any daggers worn. She told me their daggers were similar to the couple of Khoumiyas I own. Perhaps these ritual dances explain the preponderance of non-functional styles of knifes from Morocco. I would ask her more but she's in Ecuador this summer where I'll be visiting her in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any ethnographic weapons available there.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode