Saifs

mariusgmioc · 9th January 2022, 09:31 AM

Welcome to the forum!

The name game is never ending and the opinions are split. Some terms that we use are are generic, some are more specific, some are ethnographically correct, some aren't.

Now with regards to the terms "shamshir" and "saif" I can only tell you my take on it as other forum colleagues may have different opinions. But that's the charm of if as it would be boring if we all agree on everything.

So, in my opinion, shamshirs are characterized mainly by their long, narrow and strongly curved blade of flattened triangular (wedge) cross-section. They can be distinguished further by their hilt into
"Persian shamshirs" (first photo),
"Ottoman shamshirs" (second photo),
"Indian shamshirs" (third photo) and
"Syrian/Arab shamshirs" (fourth photo).

For others, the hilt would be the defining element in naming the sword, so the saber in the second photo would be called "kilij," the one in the third photo would be called "tulwar," and the one in the last photo would be called "saif."

Is this ethnographically correct?!
Not really as in India pretty much all sabers would be called "tulwar," in Turkey pretty much all sabers would be called "kilij" and in the Arab world pretty much all sabers would be called "saif."

However, for me as a collector strictly ethnographic criteria are too vague and imprecise, so for clarity and conciseness I prefer to use more specific ethnographically inspired terms.

mariusgmioc · 9th January 2022, 10:39 AM

Now, what would I call a "saif" would be a saber with a characteristic Arabic hilt and slightly broader, less curved (than a shamshir), usually imported blade like those in the photos.

You may notice the "saif" in the first photo has a very distinct hilt. These types of saifs are attributed mainly to Yemen, while those in the last two photos are attributed to Syria.

dakary · 9th January 2022, 07:18 PM

Thanks for that!

Yes, the terminology seems to be pretty muddy! I appreciate the clarification. By your terminology, I would say that what I am looking for is an Arabic (or Syrian) shamshir - or possibly a Persian one. I'm not sure how much variation there is within these, but I'd like it to be something that is appropriate in the Gulf region. I've seen plenty of Indian and Turkish (between these, I'd prefer Turkish), but very lacking in Syrian, Arabian, and Persian. I'm not even sure where to look. It is possible that I'll be back over there at some point (although it isn't up to me nor does it look probable), but even then, I wouldn't know where to look. The stuff around the souqs was stuff made in China or India (and sometimes locally modified/decorated) and stainless steel for use in sword dances. That's not what I'm after, of course. I'm also not looking for an antique. Something new (but the older the style, the better), functional, high quality but not ornate, and preferably by a local(ish) smith. I have no idea if there is such a thing - I'm being pretty specific.

Battara · 9th January 2022, 07:27 PM

Here is my saif. It was probably made in Hyderabad India and for the Yemeni market.

dakary · 9th January 2022, 08:07 PM

I do have to add that those Yemini hilts and pommels are really attractive to me too. I think Yemini arms are really nice. I like their jambiyas also. I tried to find one when I was in the Gulf but I just didn't have an eye that would allow me to pick out something worth getting and I wimped out. I probably should have just taken a plunge and gotten something.

ariel · 10th January 2022, 03:01 AM

sorry

dakary · 11th January 2022, 07:51 PM

Battara, that is not an antique, is it? If it isn't, could share where you acquired it from? Thanks!

9th January 2022, 09:31 AM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Welcome to the forum! The name game is never ending and the opinions are split. Some terms that we use are are generic, some are more specific, some are ethnographically correct, some aren't. Now with regards to the terms "shamshir" and "saif" I can only tell you my take on it as other forum colleagues may have different opinions. But that's the charm of if as it would be boring if we all agree on everything. So, in my opinion, shamshirs are characterized mainly by their long, narrow and strongly curved blade of flattened triangular (wedge) cross-section. They can be distinguished further by their hilt into "Persian shamshirs" (first photo), "Ottoman shamshirs" (second photo), "Indian shamshirs" (third photo) and "Syrian/Arab shamshirs" (fourth photo). For others, the hilt would be the defining element in naming the sword, so the saber in the second photo would be called "kilij," the one in the third photo would be called "tulwar," and the one in the last photo would be called "saif." Is this ethnographically correct?! Not really as in India pretty much all sabers would be called "tulwar," in Turkey pretty much all sabers would be called "kilij" and in the Arab world pretty much all sabers would be called "saif." However, for me as a collector strictly ethnographic criteria are too vague and imprecise, so for clarity and conciseness I prefer to use more specific ethnographically inspired terms. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 9th January 2022 at 10:42 AM.

9th January 2022, 10:39 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Now, what would I call a "saif" would be a saber with a characteristic Arabic hilt and slightly broader, less curved (than a shamshir), usually imported blade like those in the photos. You may notice the "saif" in the first photo has a very distinct hilt. These types of saifs are attributed mainly to Yemen, while those in the last two photos are attributed to Syria. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 10th January 2022 at 07:26 AM.

9th January 2022, 07:27 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Here is my saif. It was probably made in Hyderabad India and for the Yemeni market. Attached Images

10th January 2022, 03:01 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	sorry Last edited by ariel; 10th January 2022 at 06:07 AM. Reason: Wrong address.

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9th January 2022, 07:18 PM	#3
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Thanks for that! Yes, the terminology seems to be pretty muddy! I appreciate the clarification. By your terminology, I would say that what I am looking for is an Arabic (or Syrian) shamshir - or possibly a Persian one. I'm not sure how much variation there is within these, but I'd like it to be something that is appropriate in the Gulf region. I've seen plenty of Indian and Turkish (between these, I'd prefer Turkish), but very lacking in Syrian, Arabian, and Persian. I'm not even sure where to look. It is possible that I'll be back over there at some point (although it isn't up to me nor does it look probable), but even then, I wouldn't know where to look. The stuff around the souqs was stuff made in China or India (and sometimes locally modified/decorated) and stainless steel for use in sword dances. That's not what I'm after, of course. I'm also not looking for an antique. Something new (but the older the style, the better), functional, high quality but not ornate, and preferably by a local(ish) smith. I have no idea if there is such a thing - I'm being pretty specific.

9th January 2022, 08:07 PM	#5
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	I do have to add that those Yemini hilts and pommels are really attractive to me too. I think Yemini arms are really nice. I like their jambiyas also. I tried to find one when I was in the Gulf but I just didn't have an eye that would allow me to pick out something worth getting and I wimped out. I probably should have just taken a plunge and gotten something.

11th January 2022, 07:51 PM	#7
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Battara, that is not an antique, is it? If it isn't, could share where you acquired it from? Thanks!