English Smallsword for Comment

Richard G · 9th September 2021, 03:13 PM

If it's English and silver it should be hallmarked. It was (and still is) a legal requirement. Even the 2" blade of a fruit knife would be marked. It is almost impossible for something like this to be made of silver in England and not be marked.
Regards
Richard

Radboud · 9th September 2021, 11:57 PM

Thanks for the replies.

Mariusgmioc, unfortunately, that is part of the decoration.

Richard, was there an obligation to display the hallmark? Could it be covered by another part of the guard?

Thanks
Bas

Radboud · 10th September 2021, 08:50 AM

This is the closest I could find to what might be a hallmark.

Located at the top of the knuckle bow where it joins the annelet. The other photo is for comparison for the detail that is on the obverse side.

midelburgo · 10th September 2021, 02:09 PM

What I find funny is that initially, the point of this style of decoration was that the owner was able to pay for the time of somebody cutting tiny parts of hard steel and put them together.
If it is made of silver this effort is something else. Now, the point is in the value of the material.

mariusgmioc · 14th September 2021, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

What I find funny is that initially, the point of this style of decoration was that the owner was able to pay for the time of somebody cutting tiny parts of hard steel and put them together.
If it is made of silver this effort is something else. Now, the point is in the value of the material.

I am not aware of the existence of such technology.

Can you please provide more details?!

From all I know this kind of pattern was made by punching and chiseling.

Mel H · 14th September 2021, 06:55 PM

Pinning down the nationality of an unmarked smallsword is always something of an enigma The component parts were available to furbishers from various sources and international trade was well established in the 18th C. Most of the makers / retailers engraved their details on the top scabbard mount, most of which are long since lost.
With regard to the sword being discussed, I have one which is engraved on the blade with a Dutch address, that has an almost identical crenulated silver grip.

Radboud · 14th September 2021, 10:26 PM

That's a nice sword you have Mel, thanks for sharing.

This style of grip binding I've seen on a few other swords, including one by William Kinman posted by Marius in my other thread.

Mel H · 16th September 2021, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

That's a nice sword you have Mel, thanks for sharing.

This style of grip binding I've seen on a few other swords, including one by William Kinman posted by Marius in my other thread.

Yes, I've seen the Kinman one, very nice, I do have a couple of others with similar crenulated foil grips, I think one of them is French.

Richard G · 17th September 2021, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

Thanks for the replies.

Richard, was there an obligation to display the hallmark? Could it be covered by another part of the guard?

Thanks
Bas

I don't know, but logic seems to indicate it had to be visible. You wouldn't want to dismantle a sword to find out if it was hall marked or not.
Hall marking of silver in the UK has been ongoing for 700 yrs. It is ingrained in the culture to the extent anything not hall marked is viewed with distinct suspicion. Indeed, the suspicion I'm displaying now!
Regards
Richard

Mel H · 17th September 2021, 03:26 PM

Hallmarks are sometimes found on the top of the guard close to the pommel.

Richard G · 19th September 2021, 07:10 PM

A possible explanation for lack of hallmarks would be if the hilt were made from pewter or Britannia metal. It would also explain the slightly greyish tone that I thought was probably a photographic distortion. If it is made from these metals this may not be the disappointment you might think it is. Whilst not as valuable a metal as silver it would be a lot rarer sword.
Best wishes
Richard

Mel H · 21st September 2021, 06:43 PM

Silver is not the hardest of materials but pewter being lead derived wouldn't be a good choice, Britannia metals are a little harder. Paktong, the mystery metal from China may be more be suitable, it was used for pistol barrels. I'm not aware if it was ever analysed but was similar to German silver or Nickel.

Radboud · 22nd September 2021, 02:20 AM

I don't think the hilt is made from pewter, but it could well be another tin derivative.

Thank you all for the ideas and feedback.

9th September 2021, 03:13 PM	#1
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	If it's English and silver it should be hallmarked. It was (and still is) a legal requirement. Even the 2" blade of a fruit knife would be marked. It is almost impossible for something like this to be made of silver in England and not be marked. Regards Richard Last edited by Richard G; 9th September 2021 at 03:28 PM.

10th September 2021, 08:50 AM	#3
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	This is the closest I could find to what might be a hallmark. Located at the top of the knuckle bow where it joins the annelet. The other photo is for comparison for the detail that is on the obverse side. Attached Images

14th September 2021, 06:55 PM	#6
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	Pinning down the nationality of an unmarked smallsword is always something of an enigma The component parts were available to furbishers from various sources and international trade was well established in the 18th C. Most of the makers / retailers engraved their details on the top scabbard mount, most of which are long since lost. With regard to the sword being discussed, I have one which is engraved on the blade with a Dutch address, that has an almost identical crenulated silver grip. Attached Images Last edited by Mel H; 14th September 2021 at 07:07 PM.

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9th September 2021, 11:57 PM	#2
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	Thanks for the replies. Mariusgmioc, unfortunately, that is part of the decoration. Richard, was there an obligation to display the hallmark? Could it be covered by another part of the guard? Thanks Bas

10th September 2021, 02:09 PM	#4
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 263	What I find funny is that initially, the point of this style of decoration was that the owner was able to pay for the time of somebody cutting tiny parts of hard steel and put them together. If it is made of silver this effort is something else. Now, the point is in the value of the material.

14th September 2021, 10:26 PM	#7
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	That's a nice sword you have Mel, thanks for sharing. This style of grip binding I've seen on a few other swords, including one by William Kinman posted by Marius in my other thread.

17th September 2021, 03:26 PM	#10
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	Hallmarks are sometimes found on the top of the guard close to the pommel.

19th September 2021, 07:10 PM	#11
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	A possible explanation for lack of hallmarks would be if the hilt were made from pewter or Britannia metal. It would also explain the slightly greyish tone that I thought was probably a photographic distortion. If it is made from these metals this may not be the disappointment you might think it is. Whilst not as valuable a metal as silver it would be a lot rarer sword. Best wishes Richard

21st September 2021, 06:43 PM	#12
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	Silver is not the hardest of materials but pewter being lead derived wouldn't be a good choice, Britannia metals are a little harder. Paktong, the mystery metal from China may be more be suitable, it was used for pistol barrels. I'm not aware if it was ever analysed but was similar to German silver or Nickel.

22nd September 2021, 02:20 AM	#13
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	I don't think the hilt is made from pewter, but it could well be another tin derivative. Thank you all for the ideas and feedback.