UNUSUAL TULWAR for COMMENT

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, absolutely not made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.

Takouba blade or Indian blade to resemble to a European blade.

Hi Kubur,
Since North African blades often tried to imitate European, and Indian armorers did as well, it is hard to say, but this seems made in India.

In West Africa, many of the takouba types do have these wide forte and tapering blades, and with this kind of fullering, but it would be difficult to imagine why a native made Saharan blade would end up in Indo-Persian tulwar hilt..I have always sort of hidden my eyes from the notorious 'labs' (very well put) where collector guaged 'antiquities' are created by nefarious sellers, but they do exist.

As I had noted, I have seen numerous instances where Sudanese blades have ended up in Indian mounts, but have always taken it that these were simply blades diverted from the trade routes which carried these blades and somehow diffused into the India network.


Here is a pata of mine I've had for about 40 years. As can be seen this appears to be a Solingen blade, the cosmological motif can be faintly seen. This is of the type that went into Sudan c. 1880s. The erratic profile of the blade is common on older kaskara and Saharan blades which have had rugged sharpening by native warriors with stones. Clearly this blade at some time ended up in this pata hillt, and it was long ago as considerably before I acquired it. In various ceremonies with groups in regions in SW India pata are used processionally and in demonstrations so this might well have been a votive piece, not intended for combat.

The wide, tapered blade takouba from regions in Saharan regions such as Mali, to Cameroon seems to have been status oriented. While often the upper part is covered by a metal collar, often these are seen with the kind of fullers seen on Stu's example.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Kubur,
Since North African blades often tried to imitate European, and Indian armorers did as well, it is hard to say, but this seems made in India.

Hi Jim,

Agreed!
South Indian three fullers are larger and not completely parrallel (unlike the takouba's ones), wider at the ricasso.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As I had noted, I have seen numerous instances where Sudanese blades have ended up in Indian mounts

Mmmm I never ever saw that, like mercenary I would like to see evidences.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
This sword belongs to me and I am as sure as I can be that it is all original and not a composite. I termed this sword as Sukhela as the blade has the flexibility to conform to the type. The sword form appears to be named after this type of steel. This is a backsword and I would be interested if Stu could confirm if his is a backsword or broadsword.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
This sword belongs to Rick and again as far as I can see it is also a backsword.
Rick questioned whether his example be termed a Dhup.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Some additional info.
http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/weapons/inde...121/index.html

https://www.fordemilitaryantiques.co...rd-blade-types

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archiv...&lot_uid=89306

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+bladed+tulwar

Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
I am inclined to believe that these 'dhup' are typically backswords (SE) as yours and Rick's, it seems other examples I have seen are single edged.

From the blade appearance of Stu's I am suspecting this is a double edged blade, note the fullers are centrally placed.
In backswords, the fullers are of course inclined toward the back of the blade with the blade resulting in more of a 'wedge' shape.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Norman, From the blade appearance of Stu's I am suspecting this is a double edged blade, note the fullers are centrally placed.

Hi Jim,
I suspect you are absolutely correct, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
This sword belongs to Rick and again as far as I can see it is also a backsword.
Rick questioned whether his example be termed a Dhup.
Regards,
Norman.

This sword came from Oriental Arms many years ago; Artzi described the steel as very fine grained, low contrast wootz.

[ariel]

My understanding ( as per Elgood) that a Firangi ( European blade) migrated North and was called Dhup in the Deccan and Asa Shamshir in North India.
And yes, those were usually quite long, but, just like everything in India, they varied enormously.

Here I am showing my Firangis. It is quite dark outside, I had to turn off some lights in our pretty small " open" room to eliminate flashes on the blades and,- last but not least,- I am a crummy photographer!!!!!!

[ariel]

This is an unquestionably real Firangi from the South.
European double-edged blade wit a single wide fuller and a " Genoese"/"Styrian"/ make your guess. trade blade. Blade is marked , see last pic.
No Indian ricasso, blade length 34 "
Good and complete basket handle with intact baluster and leather-wrapped hilt, old, practically congealed leather, if not the original, then definitely from the working life of this Firangi.