looking for these 500 years old swords

[corrado26]

In the Museo Nationale die Roma "Castel Sant' Angelo"you can find this sword

[bvieira]

Originally Posted by corrado26

In the Museo Nationale die Roma "Castel Sant' Angelo"you can find this sword

Tks, not exact match but certain a one to look for!

keep it coming!! hehe

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

In the Museo Nationale die Roma "Castel Sant' Angelo"you can find this sword

As i see, Udo, a style of sword used both in the Peninsula as also in Italy, in the second half XV century. In those days sword styles had much in common among such nations, namely by navigators.

[fernando]

Amazing Bruno; the discussion based in a few swords, looking well, this work comprises quite an arsenal of weapons.


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[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

Amazing Bruno; the discussion based in a few swords, looking well, this work comprises quite an arsenal of weapons.


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yes indeed! many weapons but not a order of christ symbol anywhere! including the grand master, Henry the navigator.

Something very wrong at this all picture!

[kronckew]

? Why does the Longbowman have two arrows sticking out of his shoulder? I also see he has the arrow on the right side of the bow which is condusive for speed shooting a clutch of arrows held in the left hand near the point or right hand, near the knock between the fingers.

And I notice The St.Paul guy in red with the gold pie rack behind his head has somehow lost the point on his sword.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... Why does the Longbowman have two arrows sticking out of his shoulder? I also see he has the arrow on the right side of the bow which is condusive for speed shooting a clutch of arrows held in the left hand near the point or right hand, near the knock between the fingers...

Maybe he has his own style to hang the the quiver; like on his right chest . I would forget all those technicalities if it were possible to ask the guy to turn around and show us the whole scene .

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I notice The St.Paul guy in red with the gold pie rack behind his head has somehow lost the point on his sword.

Maybe it was shortened to fit in the one available picture frame the author had at hand . Anyway there was no need for a pointy sword, as the one which he was decapitated (thus the symbol) was probably not a thrusting but a slashing sword.
This reminds me the (plausible) story in that the sword of the great Condestável Dom Nuno Alvares Pereira had its point shortened to fit into the niche where it was originally exhibited, in the convent he later lived and died.


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[David R]

Originally Posted by kronckew

? Why does the Longbowman have two arrows sticking out of his shoulder? I also see he has the arrow on the right side of the bow which is condusive for speed shooting a clutch of arrows held in the left hand near the point or right hand, near the knock between the fingers.

And I notice The St.Paul guy in red with the gold pie rack behind his head has somehow lost the point on his sword.

He has two arrows held in his right hand, which has drawn the bow back to his shoulder. It's a speed shooting technique that I have used myself.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David R

He has two arrows held in his right hand, which has drawn the bow back to his shoulder. It's a speed shooting technique that I have used myself.

Elementary, my dear Wayne .
Actually, either the artist made an error of perspective (which i would doubt) or the hypothetical distance between the spare arrows and his hidden hand is far too long; as if he holds them, not in his hand but by some manner in his wrist.

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[GIO]

[QUOTE=kronckew]? I also see he has the arrow on the right side of the bow .

Japanese style

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

... yes indeed! many weapons but not a order of christ symbol anywhere! including the grand master, Henry the navigator ...

If a later theory appointed for the panels to represent the symbolic (in absency) Christian funeral of the Infant Dom Fernando, who died captive in Fez in 1443, this would then re-date of panels from 1470 to 1445; a date found signed by Nuno Gonçalves, in an inscription painted in inverted position in the ankle boot of the young adolescent (Infant) in the third panel; as per a paleographic reading done by the National archives in 2002. This new date of the panels situates the persions portrayed more in consensus with the whole family of King Dom João I, as a central motif to be depicted by the artist. I would skip over the identity of all present, except for how and where Henry (the navigator) is present. The theory that it is not the man with the burgundian chaperon is one like any other. The assumption that the bust depicted in the forntispiece of Gomes de Zurara's chronicle, kept in the library of Paris, is that of his brother, falls in contradiction with such codice cover also depicting Dom Henrique's famous motto; TALANT DE BIEN FAIRE.
As for the Order of Christ symbol not being present in the panels, i would rather wonder, not why it is not there, but why it should. Firstly, we know that Dom Henrique was not a Grand Master of the Order but its administrator, which is rather different. Secondly, if it is, as it seems that, the panels represent a funerial cerimony, the nobles and knights would not assist the ritual in military dressing, as we actually notice. Also they would not need to carry weapons, except for a belt dressing dagger; but that could be 'artistic freedom' .

Originally Posted by bvieira

... Something very wrong at this all picture!

The only thing so far that the investigators found to be spurious, is the net later painted over the guys in the first panel, giving the idea that they are fishermen, which is not right.


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[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

As for the Order of Christ symbol not being present in the panels, i would rather wonder, not why it is not there, but why it should. Firstly, we know that Dom Henrique was not a Grand Master of the Order but its administrator, which is rather different. Secondly, if it is, as it seems that, the panels represent a funerial cerimony, the nobles and knights would not assist the ritual in military dressing, as we actually notice. Also they would not need to carry weapons, except for a belt dressing dagger; but that could be 'artistic freedom' .


The only thing so far that the investigators found to be spurious, is the net later painted over the guys in the first panel, giving the idea that they are fishermen, which is not right.


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I must disagree with you, Dom Enrique is indeed considered a grand master of the order, to call him a administrator or governor is rather wrong, the only deference between him and the previous masters is that is was not a "religious" one, the rules of the order changed and the crown from now on directly elected the master of the order (at least the exterior one because the interior one was rather secret and uncontrollable by even the crown).

Enrique as a grand master of the order of Christ should have the order symbol, remember the order was the most important institution after the crown, it was so powerful that most of the discovered lands were given to the order and not to the king! The ship sails had the cross of the order and not the arms of Portugal! The order symbol was important and expected to be used by their members at a important event.

The figure of Enrique is probably wrong, that guy with the hat is not him, but rather is brother! I think the most accurate vision we have of him is at jeronimos! that outfit and style is much more right with the chronicles description than this figure at the painting. The Zurara book is the only reason that goes against my opinion, but remember the book was done years after this painting so there is a possibility that Zurara copy the image.

But getting back to main issue, the swords, i still think they have particular features! one strange thing is that should exist much more swords of this type than the ones that we know of! we know that some important navigators were buried with their sword, could this explain this issue ? dont think so!

[fernando]

Bruno, i certainly disagree with your disagreement, but i agree that we better cease this 'colateral' discussion.
As for surviving swords of the period, this is a wonder; they are made of extinguishable materials, not many resist endurance of time. But i would bet that, those buried with their owners, are a number inferior than those kept in private (wealthy) collections, whose owners ar not willing to let us plebians know of their ( dubious) acquisitions.


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[bvieira]

Originally Posted by corrado26

In the Museo Nationale die Roma "Castel Sant' Angelo"you can find this sword

like the one you mention, this is not a exact match but i think they are the best pictures i have seen from this type. This one was sold at a european auction house.

[fernando]

Great example, Bruno.
Also in the famous Pastrana tapestries, commissioned by King Dom Afonso V, to celebrate conquests in African territory (Arzila, Tangiers) we can see, among plenty weaponry advanced for the time, a few examples of these swords, in a shape similar to those in the panels. Actually it presumed that the cards for the weaving of these tapestries (in Tournai, today Belgium) were executed by the same Nuno Gonçalves.


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[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

Very nice example, Bruno.
Also in the famous Pastrana tapestries, commissioned by King Dom Afonso V, to celebrate conquests in African territory (Arzila, Tangiers) we can see, among plenty weaponry advanced for the time, a few examples of these swords, in a shape similar to those in the panels. Actually it presumed that the cards for the weaving of these tapestries (in Tournai, today Belgium) were executed by the same Nuno Gonçalves.


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Exactly i have seen that! this amplifies the question where did this swords ended up ? it they were used by any knight at that time, we should know many more examples that the ones that are known.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

... Exactly i have seen that! this amplifies the question where did this swords ended up ?

You tell me Bruno, once my previous guessings (#25) were not plausible.
We should regard the examples represented in the tapistries with some uniformity of style, perhaps the result of their repetition in so many instances of the battle scene, or their relative smallness among so many other details. Whereas tith the panels, it is possible to observe detailed stylistic divergences between the different models; showing us the armaments of illustrious courtiers, the best that money can buy;

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

Exactly i have seen that! this amplifies the question where did this swords ended up ? it they were used by any knight at that time, we should know many more examples that the ones that are known.

Looks like the Spaniards give a better account of their sister pattern high end examples. But you now, a larger country, larger museums, greater rust degradations, larger burial sites ... and certainly a lot more private collections.



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[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

Looks like the Spaniards give a better account of their sister pattern high end examples. But you now, a larger country, larger museums, greater rust degradations, larger burial sites ... and certainly a lot more private collections.



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The spanish origin of these swords is something i don't take for guaranteed, in the Philips age some of the best items at the portuguese crown armoury houses were indeed stolen.

[kronckew]

Don't forget Spain ruled the Low countries from 1556 thru 1714, and in the latter years with rebellions there, aided by the English, there would have been a lot of Spanish/Portugese swords there, many of which were no longer needed by their previous owners after their demise. Spain also ruled Portugal 1580-1640, and I gather were not above taking souvenirs.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

The spanish origin of these swords is something i don't take for guaranteed, in the Philips age some of the best items at the portuguese crown armoury houses were indeed stolen.

I don't think at all that this would have been the case, given their identity.
From top to bottom: the sword of King Fernando, the Catholic, in the Cathedral of Granada; another of Fernando’ swords, in the Real Armería of Madrid; the so called Gran Capitan sword, because of “Gran Capitan” Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba, also in the Real Armería; and the sword of the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan of Madrid.
But if your doubts remain ... i am off.