Tangguh records

Jean · 2nd November 2020, 09:18 AM

Thank you Alan. I will start the translation at my very slow pace for filling my free time during the confinement period which will probably last for long...

My primary interest is to compare the features of some of my krisses which are attributed to a specific tangguh or even a specific empu with the descriptions in the booklet. I suppose that plenty of forumites would like to do the same with their own krisses, but this may appear disappointing from my previous experiences.

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 2nd November 2020, 11:15 AM

Jean, if you want to try this there is one thing you must do before you even begin to do any comparisons, you must ONLY apply the indicators to keris of HIGH QUALITY.

At the time when this little primer was put together it is believed that the basic requirements that permitted something to be classified into a tangguh had not yet been corrupted.

Identify quality > find a dominant indicator > attempt to align other indicators > decide an overarching tangguh classification.

And never forget that you are dealing with a system that was intended for use by people who process information in a totally different way to the way in which people from a European socio-cultural base process information.

Good luck.

Jean · 3rd November 2020, 10:20 AM

Dear friends,
After having a very interesting discussion with Alan, it appears that my project to translate the BI version of the booklet into English is even more problematic than I expected (my attempt to translate the first paragraph was already very discouraging).
In fact the translation into BI was made in 3 steps: from old Javanese (honocokro) (1) into romanized Javanese (2) and then into BI (3), and this has caused multiple mistakes and inaccuracies. For instance, the translation into BI owned by Alan is significantly different from mine, so how can I expect to get a decently accurate translation into English? Well, this is disappointing but it seems that I will not be able pursue my project, and this could only be properly done by a kris literate person fluent in Javanese honocokro and English.

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 3rd November 2020, 10:52 AM

Maybe not even then Jean.

If Wirasukadgo really was involved he would have made these notes in a way that were intelligible to him, not necessarily to everybody in general. This can be compounded by the fact that the way Javanese is used does not rely on words alone, plus the fact that the language itself is non-standard.

There are more problems in a project like the one you envisaged than there might appear to be.

In my opinion, the only feasible way to make sense of something like this is to sit down with the originator and use recognised audit methodology to reveal the intent of the writer.

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2nd November 2020, 09:18 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan. I will start the translation at my very slow pace for filling my free time during the confinement period which will probably last for long... My primary interest is to compare the features of some of my krisses which are attributed to a specific tangguh or even a specific empu with the descriptions in the booklet. I suppose that plenty of forumites would like to do the same with their own krisses, but this may appear disappointing from my previous experiences. Regards

2nd November 2020, 11:15 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,193	Jean, if you want to try this there is one thing you must do before you even begin to do any comparisons, you must ONLY apply the indicators to keris of HIGH QUALITY. At the time when this little primer was put together it is believed that the basic requirements that permitted something to be classified into a tangguh had not yet been corrupted. Identify quality > find a dominant indicator > attempt to align other indicators > decide an overarching tangguh classification. And never forget that you are dealing with a system that was intended for use by people who process information in a totally different way to the way in which people from a European socio-cultural base process information. Good luck.

3rd November 2020, 10:20 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Dear friends, After having a very interesting discussion with Alan, it appears that my project to translate the BI version of the booklet into English is even more problematic than I expected (my attempt to translate the first paragraph was already very discouraging). In fact the translation into BI was made in 3 steps: from old Javanese (honocokro) (1) into romanized Javanese (2) and then into BI (3), and this has caused multiple mistakes and inaccuracies. For instance, the translation into BI owned by Alan is significantly different from mine, so how can I expect to get a decently accurate translation into English? Well, this is disappointing but it seems that I will not be able pursue my project, and this could only be properly done by a kris literate person fluent in Javanese honocokro and English. Regards

3rd November 2020, 10:52 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,193	Maybe not even then Jean. If Wirasukadgo really was involved he would have made these notes in a way that were intelligible to him, not necessarily to everybody in general. This can be compounded by the fact that the way Javanese is used does not rely on words alone, plus the fact that the language itself is non-standard. There are more problems in a project like the one you envisaged than there might appear to be. In my opinion, the only feasible way to make sense of something like this is to sit down with the originator and use recognised audit methodology to reveal the intent of the writer.