Minasbad, Tenegre?

Sajen · 27th March 2020, 01:05 PM

What we have until now:

1. The handle is from wood or horn and shows a deity with a teeth showing grin
(one example is simplified), the ears are visible. From 7 examples have three
finger grooves.

2. The tang went through the hilt and is peened at top.

3. The blade spine is very thick near the handle (over 10 mm).

4. The blade shows a "strangling" approx. 20 mm after the handle and broaden
until the blade clipped again to the point. The clipped point can be longer or
also very small (Robert's example).

Sajen · 27th March 2020, 04:05 PM

Here a new taken picture from the two examples I have by hand side by side.

Upper one:
Overall length: 59,9 cm
Blade length: 47 cm
Max. width: 3,8 cm
Thickness behind handle: 11,4 mm

Lower one:
Overall length: 58,8 cm
Blade length: 45,5 cm
Max. width: 3,5 cm
Thickness behind handle: 11,9 mm

Ian · 27th March 2020, 10:39 PM

Thanks Detlef for summarizing the features of these swords. As Xas noted, they appear to be a distinct category that we have not recognized well before. I would simply add that it has no guard (unlike a minisbad which does).

A quick question for Xas. What is the animal/deity depicted on these? I have heard it described variusly as an aso (dog) or bat motif.

Ian

Sajen · 28th March 2020, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks Detlef for summarizing the features of these swords. As Xas noted, they appear to be a distinct category that we have not recognized well before. I would simply add that it has no guard (unlike a minisbad which does).

A quick question for Xas. What is the animal/deity depicted on these? I have heard it described variusly as an aso (dog) or bat motif?

Hi Ian,

Yes, I agree with you.

But the sword from Robert has a small guard. His sword seems to have some exceptions, handle is simplified, it has a small guard and the clipped point is very short.

The deity hilt was once described from Bankaya as: "As for the figural carving, he described this type seen on this thread as inaso or aso (dog) faced carving. The other figural style is called sawa which I believe is more of a crocodile or naga form." in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bicol

Regards,
Detlef

Battara · 28th March 2020, 06:30 PM

It is hard to tell bat or dog. However, if I understand right, there were early contacts between Bicol region and Borneo. In fact, some Bornean princes came to Bicol long ago. If true, then the Bornean influence of the aso (dog-dragon) got exported to Bicol as well.

Then could there be a merger with the Bakunawa deity? Possible since Bicol and the Visayas are culturally connected.

Sajen · 28th March 2020, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Then could there be a merger with the Bakunawa deity? Possible since Bicol and the Visayas are culturally connected.

Good point Jose! Here the hilt pommel from one of my Visayan blades (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=minasbad)
Possible Waray? In the thread you can see other similar handles.

MacCathain · 30th March 2020, 12:57 AM

I'm pleased my inquiry led to the sharing of the great information in this thread. Thanks to all of you who replied.

Any additional thoughts as to the holes in the dog's cheek? It doesn't seem to be a common feature, though there are one or two examples shown in the related threads. Perhaps evidence of the existence of a "retention strap ring" is a clue to age?

M

27th March 2020, 01:05 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,734	What we have until now: 1. The handle is from wood or horn and shows a deity with a teeth showing grin (one example is simplified), the ears are visible. From 7 examples have three finger grooves. 2. The tang went through the hilt and is peened at top. 3. The blade spine is very thick near the handle (over 10 mm). 4. The blade shows a "strangling" approx. 20 mm after the handle and broaden until the blade clipped again to the point. The clipped point can be longer or also very small (Robert's example). Last edited by Sajen; 28th March 2020 at 10:38 AM.

27th March 2020, 04:05 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,734	Here a new taken picture from the two examples I have by hand side by side. Upper one: Overall length: 59,9 cm Blade length: 47 cm Max. width: 3,8 cm Thickness behind handle: 11,4 mm Lower one: Overall length: 58,8 cm Blade length: 45,5 cm Max. width: 3,5 cm Thickness behind handle: 11,9 mm Attached Images

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27th March 2020, 10:39 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,167	Thanks Detlef for summarizing the features of these swords. As Xas noted, they appear to be a distinct category that we have not recognized well before. I would simply add that it has no guard (unlike a minisbad which does). A quick question for Xas. What is the animal/deity depicted on these? I have heard it described variusly as an aso (dog) or bat motif. Ian

28th March 2020, 06:30 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	It is hard to tell bat or dog. However, if I understand right, there were early contacts between Bicol region and Borneo. In fact, some Bornean princes came to Bicol long ago. If true, then the Bornean influence of the aso (dog-dragon) got exported to Bicol as well. Then could there be a merger with the Bakunawa deity? Possible since Bicol and the Visayas are culturally connected.

30th March 2020, 12:57 AM	#7
MacCathain Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 66	I'm pleased my inquiry led to the sharing of the great information in this thread. Thanks to all of you who replied. Any additional thoughts as to the holes in the dog's cheek? It doesn't seem to be a common feature, though there are one or two examples shown in the related threads. Perhaps evidence of the existence of a "retention strap ring" is a clue to age? M